14-06-2000 03:03									#1
	Provinces - political units Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I think that instead of dealing with only other countries u also have to deal with provinces.

As it is now in civ2 provinces (read cities)is dealth in only two different ways: They belong to a foreign country or they belong to you. Smac, complicates it a bit graphically and with more drones in cities not built by you, but nevertheless i suggest something totally different.

I think that instead, provinces can belong to you in more ways. U decide how much freedom a province will have, and if the province isn't satisfied with your actions it may cause you problems. There are several things that ties the province to your country. Here is some examples on what makes a province independent.

- Economic independence (they don't pay taxes to you and don't get any money from your budget either)
- Military independence (They have their own army without your control)
- Diplomatic independence (You have to deal with them via the diplomatic window)
- Scientific independence (they have there own research)
- Social independence (they have other laws but can still belong to you)

As long as u don't give a province diplomatic independence you can always change everything else (and ofcourse take the consequences) as you pleases. But once u give a province diplomatic freedom they will be just as reliable as any other civ and all your control in that province will have to be dealth with through diplomacy.

Provinces far away from the heart of your empire will be less satisfied with your ruling and maybe want more freedom.

There are some levels of independence/submission

1. dependent
2. cooperation
3. independence

FE Military cooperation means that the province will have it's own army but it's under your control.

Dependent is what every province is that is totally under your control (under the control of the capitol province).

The reason why you have to give freedom to certian provinces can be:
- The people have another religion (if religions included in the social model)
- The people are poor i think that u are robbing them (which may be the truth)and may start rebellions and revolts.
- Another country wants you too.

It's most about giving away some of the control in order of not loosing all of it.

I'll list every kind of relationship between the player and the province. And some of the concequences.

Economic dependent - they pay taxes as usual
Economic cooperation - Half of the tax goes to the provincial governor, you split the maintance cost.
Economic independent - No tax, no maintance cost.
Military dependent - They don't have an army of their own. If rebellions break out it's easy to handle.
Military cooperation - They have an army that is under your control. If rebellions and revolts happen this army might get a will of it's own.
Military independent. The provincial army is not under your control at all.
Diplomatic dependent - u decide any changes in how to handle the province.
Diplomatic cooperation - U decide what to do but the provincial governor may refuse. The governor may also negotiate with you.
Diplomatic independent - The provincial governor is now powerful enough to get in touch with other political leaders. Any changes in your relations has to be done with negotiations.
Scientific dependent - No explanation needed.
Scientific cooperation - They have their own research but both you and the province gets the technology.
Scientific independent - They have there own research.
Social dependent - The same rules as in the rest of your empire.
Social cooperation - They may have other rules but you decide which ones.
Social dependent - They decide for themselves wich rules they want.

With rules I mean things like: freedom of religion, slavery, legal drugs and so on.

Any questions?
[This message has been edited by Stuff2 (edited June 13, 2000).]

	14-06-2000 14:55									#2
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Nice idea. Although I don't know what the current ideas for provinces are right now...

	15-06-2000 02:07									#4
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That's because we are waiting for Rodrigo to post his new govt model, hopefully this weekend. It IIRC has some of the features you are looking for... My comments are going to wait until it is posted.

	16-06-2000 08:02									#5
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Stuff2:
In fact my initial idea in the govt model included "province status", very very similar to what you say. After some discussions with Mark (via e-mail), I preferred to have just a very crude province-level modeling in the govt model and assume most of the effects you're looking for would be handled by the [future] diplomatic model, via special treaties with small civs. Still, the govt, social and riots models will provide some of the elements you've mentioned, like handling people's freedom, religious discriminations and nationalistic rebellions.
This weekend I'll post social and govt models and I'm working hard to post the riots model too, so they'll be at the same time available. I hope these three will give the game at least part of what you're proposing, and if not, discussions must go on...

Rodrigo

	18-06-2000 05:42									#7
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I think we haveto make exceptions for the civ/not-a-civ condition. There are too many real-world instances to just say that's so. Also you have things like puppet civs which would be under your control, but not your civ. You have occupied territory which is you don't ness claim to own, but still send military troops into it for whatever reason such as Isreal. You have civilzations that act with "dominion" status which means they are their own civ in so far as internal governing, but when it comes to wars, or dealings with other nations, they are part of your nation.