11-09-2004 00:11									#1
	A used car salesman in Napolonic Europe Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Soon after Napolean is made head of the Directory in Europe, a used car sales men from the US mysteriously appears in Napolean's palace.

Napolean: What in going on here! How did you get in?

The used car salesman men looks slightly down into Napolean's eye, and says "Greetings Napolean, I have come back in time to ensure your domination over Europe, so that you will be known for more than just liking your icecream being a mix of Vanilla, Chocolote, and Strawberry in equal porportions"

Napolean: Ah yes, that's always been my favorite icecream, but my armies are already to go and can quickly conquer the contientant Europe without help.

Used car salesman : Yes, but the English & Russians will intervene, and the English navy seriously outnumbers yours while the Russians are protected by old man winter. Are there enough factories anywhere in France to supply your army for minus thirty celesusis weather?

Napolean: No, but I'd just invade in the spring to reach Moscow before Winter.

Used car salesman: Won't work, those Russians would just tear up what little good roads they have, and burn their crops to the ground. Most of the territory you'd be passing thru is occuplied by Poles so the Russians don't care about the number of civilian Polish casulaties. But I have a plan that would get them and most other countries in Europe to turn over all but their capitals to you without you invaded?

Napolean: Your obviously out of your mind ...

Used car salesman: Just send the Spanish ambassor over and you'll see, no cost to you in I'm wrong.

Napolean: Okay.

Spanish advisor enters.

Used Car Salesman: How would you feel about a Mutal Protection Pact between France and Spain?

Spanish advisor: Your military is so strong that I'd give most any four cities to France in exchange.

Napolean : Your four eastern most.

Spanish advisor: Deal! Shakes hands and leaves.

Used car salesman, I sugest we call the Austrian empire next.

Austrian empire arrives:

Used Car Salesman: How would you feel about a Mutal Protection Pact between France and Austria. Note that Spain has already signed.

Austrian advisor : Your combined military is so strong that I'd give every city except our Vienna, our capital.

Napeolan : Deal!

Used Car Salesman: I sugest Prussia next. Continue with rest of main European powers except England and their two lapdogs, and call upon Ottoman Empire followed by Russia last.

They do so, and Napolean's empire indeed has grown to all non captial cities of civs not actually at war except for Spain.

Napoelan, what now?

Used Car Salesman: Just wait one turn, no need to defend the new cities, England and her cronnies can't take enough cities this turn to bring your empire below 66% of Europe's territory nor population. Trust me.

Napolean does so, and indeed dispite France losing two cities, England and her allies conceed a domination victory to France.

The Used Car Salesman then tries to enter his time machine to return home, but is surprized when it doesn't work and he's still there.

Used Car Salesman: What the *(&^^! I should be back in the present.

Napolean : You've altered the past, and altered your future, there's probably not even a timemachine in the new future. But don't worry, France needs more salemen.

Last edited by joncnunn on 14-01-2005 at 01:56

	11-09-2004 01:30									#2
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Clever story! Except there are other 'occult' considerations in order to have a 'domination' victory. A vortex of 'sovereignty' passes around the planet cyclically every 6000 plus years give or take a few centuries. Having long since passed through Indus, Babylon, Ancient Palestine, (when the giants lived there) on over Greece to Rome. Then on up whirling through France to LONDON before it will cross over the atlantic to settle in Washington DC for a season until now, then move across the US to Seattle, where centuries from now it will move up to the lower heavens before again droping down in China completing a long cycle encompassing many, many seasons. Some cycles circle lower sweeping through Northern Africa and Central America etc. (that was a cycle long past).

So here is problem, No domination victory in Europe is possiple unless Napoleon occupies London, de fact oh. Breaking up Old England to her previous parts. Two of which most be politically controlled. Such as Wales and Scotland would do.

This is why your Time machine will not work. For any wizard knows (you need to change professions) that a time machine is not dependant on how time-line spill out, for they are just a bunch of ribbons. Like DNA if you could see them (as some mystics can).

So back to school with you, fortunately, Napoleon is a student of the occult and there is an island in the Meditteraen where you can take a ship to and study. (better be a trade ship though, considering the British sea domoninance). Sea dominance is critical! Forget making cold weather factories, for that matter forget Russia all together! Make more ships!!!! You might need a 3 to 1 advantage at sea to actually pull this off. So get to it.

Oh, Napoleon had 'wizards' on his staff, so BEWARE!

	11-09-2004 04:49									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

joncnunn,

that is great stuff

quick, witty and well put together

thank you


oh, more please

	12-09-2004 01:36									#4
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Antrine, all the stories I write are based upon my games in Conquests. C3C counts this as a victory. (Only 60 points but still a W.) In that particular conquest, no country has enough territory nor population to block a domination victory on turn 1, and the dumb AI will trade cities away to either France or England in exchange for a MPP because of how much military units these two major powers start with realtive to everyone else.

	12-09-2004 05:24									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Maybe, your game was a ‘cosmic vision’ in disguise, were you playing on Deity or Sid level? Anyway, great take or satire on a dysfunctional Conquest!

I never got past turn one on that Conquest, though I certainly love the history of the time period. (P.S. I am among other things, a rare book collector, and I have an English translation of a certain book of Napoleon's personal library (purportedly of course; and I will not admit what I paid for it!) Want to guess what kind of subject matter? My trite addendum to your story is a hint.

	13-09-2004 04:53									#6
	Put an end to popups!

clever.

	13-09-2004 04:58									#7
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This is weird. How did you get them to give away all their cities just for a mutual pact? Why did you call the one guy a used carsalesman? I was expecting him to try and dupe napolean in the end but he just got stuck back in time so I thought the ending was a bit of a let down. Antrine, what are you on about? Are you into the occult or something? You bought an expensive occult book from Napolean?

	13-09-2004 05:54									#8
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Sure, I just jumped into my time-machine and helped myself to His Majesty's Library. If that used car salesman would like to get back, my price isn't too high

unscratchedfoot, I do not believe I admitted to being into anything, just history!

Trust me

	13-09-2004 07:31									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Antrine Sure, I just jumped into my time-machine and helped myself to His Majesty's Library. If that used car salesman would like to get back, my price isn't too high unscratchedfoot, I do not believe I admitted to being into anything, just history! Trust me

indeed - and if they attack the car, save the radio

	13-09-2004 07:38									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Also the time machine isn't mentioned in the story's beginning. What I'[d do is just tell the story from the perspective of the salesman (maybe even 1st person) to have this and to give the character a little more girth so that we are all genuinely upset by his inability to get home.

Also, Napoleon explains his problem to him... why Napoleon? Does Napoleon really know that much about the mechanics of time travel? But you see you don't provide any other character who might do that... maybe add in a philosopher character for him to befriend to postulate this at the end....

But all of this would make your story a lot longer.... it's problematic.

	13-09-2004 08:26									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

well maybe Napolean does have a book about time travel in his personal library where Atrine was getting books from. Atrine, your earlier posts had me swimming in delerium. I couldn't make heads or tails of what you were talking about. I like Napolean. He borrowed money to put together an army and then went around making war at every chance just for fun of it. Really there was no logic to his warfare, just causing mayhem and castrophe. Not quite as cool as Atilla the Hun but close.

	13-09-2004 08:48									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Historically, 'occult' only meant hidden or secret information. My English weighs in at about 1910 due to the literature I have favored these many years.

And about Napoleon or European wars, unless you controlled the seas as the British Empire did or the Spanish Empire before them, you could 'control' all the turf you wanted but 'domination' would still elude you. Point in reference we (the dasdardly over-reacting and over-reaching US) effectively control said world largely by following the British empires model of sea domination now with air added thereto. That is with World Class Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups. I forget now how many we have, however it is more than the rest of world combined and is VERY expensive and effective.

	13-09-2004 12:21									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Antrine Historically, 'occult' only meant hidden or secret information. My English weighs in at about 1910 due to the literature I have favored these many years. And about Napoleon or European wars, unless you controlled the seas as the British Empire did or the Spanish Empire before them, you could 'control' all the turf you wanted but 'domination' would still elude you. Point in reference we (the dasdardly over-reacting and over-reaching US) effectively control said world largely by following the British empires model of sea domination now with air added thereto. That is with World Class Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups. I forget now how many we have, however it is more than the rest of world combined and is VERY expensive and effective.

What is 1910 mean? Is that like in chess where 1910 is like an expert? So what does it mean if you have a high literature stat? Can you talk like Macbeth fluently?

As for US navy, I think you are overrating it cause the navy is much less significant now than in the age of sail because the majority of overseas shipments and people transfers is done by air. If another country threatened the US by sea, they'd by sunk by air units, not naval, though probably from a carrier if not from landbased B-52s. From what I've read, the US dominates mostly economically and through the CIA much more than militarily, though it all kinduv works together in a synergy to put forth the US strategy of maintaining its position as a global superpower.

	13-09-2004 22:22									#14
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Quote//Can you talk like Macbeth fluently//Unquote

No, my pronouncing sucks! I read in the English era of 1850 to 1935 with 1910 as average all along certain lines for sake of writing. Thousands of old books carefully kept in humidity controlled rooms. This is a profession and passion, that is all. But pronouncing, geeze no one around speaks thus, so I hobbled along with my own variants, yet the last few years I have been cleaning up my act at Toastmaster with some 50 speeches so far to fix up presentation.

Read everything on any subject, and wahla you can soon pontificate as an expert, especially if you join a club where they are abliged to listen to you!

Anyway this is just writing fantasy, spitting out ideas as they surface, where they go often who knows? And I think, 'joncnunn' did a great job with wit and satire. As well I have seen some your posts here and Fanatics you have great charm and humor. I have chuckled often.

Cheers, I am not a champion of what the US does overseas. I think we blew it when we (the Republic) gave the Central Federal Government such a blank check in dealing with foreign affairs. The first century it was not so bad, however since we invaded Mexico willy nilly and stole 1/3 of their country on a pretense, I think like mad dogs tasting blood we have behaved dastardly too often since then.

Last edited by Antrine on 13-09-2004 at 22:38

	13-09-2004 22:44									#15
	Got spare money?

On how to get the AI to give away their cities for an MPP:

Have lots and lots more military units than they do.

Also like any city trade, you can't sugest paying for it, only thing on your side of the ledger can be MPP.

In the US, Used car salemen are notorious for being able to talk people into bad deals.

There's several theories on time travel, I went with the Asmiov's "The End of Eternity" model.

In the US, Used Car salemen as a group also ranks low on the respectiablity scale, (better than Politicans but about the same level as Trial Lawyers.)

quote: Originally posted by unscratchedfoot This is weird. How did you get them to give away all their cities just for a mutual pact? Why did you call the one guy a used carsalesman? I was expecting him to try and dupe napolean in the end but he just got stuck back in time so I thought the ending was a bit of a let down. Antrine, what are you on about? Are you into the occult or something? You bought an expensive occult book from Napolean?

	13-09-2004 22:54									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well, that's a UK and US persepective, but not indicative of perspective of some other countries:

Russia has always been more army centric than naval centric.

Napolean himself was more concerned with dominationing the contientant of Europe with his armies than trying to build up a Navy large enough to allow an invasion of England. On the naval front, he largely kept it just large enough to prevent England from directly invading France itself, but not large enough teven keep England from landing troops in harbors controled by third party countries that supported England.

quote: Originally posted by Antrine Historically, 'occult' only meant hidden or secret information. My English weighs in at about 1910 due to the literature I have favored these many years. And about Napoleon or European wars, unless you controlled the seas as the British Empire did or the Spanish Empire before them, you could 'control' all the turf you wanted but 'domination' would still elude you. Point in reference we (the dasdardly over-reacting and over-reaching US) effectively control said world largely by following the British empires model of sea domination now with air added thereto. That is with World Class Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups. I forget now how many we have, however it is more than the rest of world combined and is VERY expensive and effective.

	13-09-2004 23:01									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes and both Napoleon and Russia are 'nothing'. Land centric empires have not panned out to well. Look at UK and US military philosophy, 'stay mobile and bring the war to you'. Anyway the Napoleon Conquest needs a facelift. If victory conditions required that France control London and that Old England control Paris. Then I think the scenario has more a chance of being functional. What do you think?

	13-09-2004 23:06									#18
	Full PM-box? Change here!

current US policy is deter threats as far as possible from our borders.

That hypotechical 3rd country opening threatening the US by sea would find Stealth Bombers starting take out the command and control centers of the country almost before its fleet was lauched. (Stealth Bombers can reach anywhere in the world on 24 hours notice, with two air-to-air refuel in route)

Actually the US CIA isn't first tier, but instead is second tier. But this doesn't matter much because we are close allies with two countries who do have first tier spy agencies, and when both of them say the same thing, it can be relied upon.

Yes, economics is our top strength. It's nothing that other countries couldn't do if they reformed their taxes & business laws. (Let failing companies go under to clean out the dead wood [re: Japan] and keep taxes in check to encourage new companies to form. [re: EU])

quote: Originally posted by unscratchedfoot As for US navy, I think you are overrating it cause the navy is much less significant now than in the age of sail because the majority of overseas shipments and people transfers is done by air. If another country threatened the US by sea, they'd by sunk by air units, not naval, though probably from a carrier if not from landbased B-52s. From what I've read, the US dominates mostly economically and through the CIA much more than militarily, though it all kinduv works together in a synergy to put forth the US strategy of maintaining its position as a global superpower.

	13-09-2004 23:11									#19
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It's really beyond the scope of the Civ III editor to fix. [There's no you must own all VPs this turn to win option.]

Even without the MPP behavior, you can still trigue both domination and score based victories without capturing the other's capital playing either civ. And for that matter with more skill and/or playing lower than normal levels playing a 3rd party civ you can also become 1st tier and trigure either score or domination without taking either Paris or London.

quote: Originally posted by Antrine Yes and both Napoleon and Russia are 'nothing'. Land centric empires have not panned out to well. Look at UK and US military philosophy, 'stay mobile and bring the war to you'. Anyway the Napoleon Conquest needs a facelift. If victory conditions required that France control London and that Old England control Paris. Then I think the scenario has more a chance of being functional. What do you think?

	14-09-2004 00:40									#20
	Tired of ads?

In this case, I'm of the believe that shorter is better. My focus is really on the absurd cities allowed to be traded during MPPs, so I added more absurd elements.

quote: Originally posted by SKILORD Also the time machine isn't mentioned in the story's beginning. What I'[d do is just tell the story from the perspective of the salesman (maybe even 1st person) to have this and to give the character a little more girth so that we are all genuinely upset by his inability to get home. Also, Napoleon explains his problem to him... why Napoleon? Does Napoleon really know that much about the mechanics of time travel? But you see you don't provide any other character who might do that... maybe add in a philosopher character for him to befriend to postulate this at the end.... But all of this would make your story a lot longer.... it's problematic.

	14-09-2004 00:53									#21
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In real life, I'd agree with you.

But in the whole series of Civ games ....

Maybe for Civ 4 they should consider some sort of roads and rail for water tiles and call them sea lanes. Something like the Galley can create a sea lane on the coast which then allows ships to use only 1/3rd MP along, the Caravel then allows creating of sea lanes along both coast & sea tiles. The freighter would then allow creating of sea lanes in all water tiles, and some tech, maybe Mass Production would further reduce MP costs along the sea lanes to 1/10th MP. (Along with RR changing from unlimited to 1/10th MP.) This would eliminate the post-rail extreme movement advantage land units have over naval units in Civ III.

quote: Originally posted by Antrine Yes and both Napoleon and Russia are 'nothing'. Land centric empires have not panned out to well. Look at UK and US military philosophy, 'stay mobile and bring the war to you'. Anyway the Napoleon Conquest needs a facelift. If victory conditions required that France control London and that Old England control Paris. Then I think the scenario has more a chance of being functional. What do you think?

	14-09-2004 01:46									#22
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A nice little yarn that joncunn, once again short sharp and sweet

As for the ongoing debate here regardless of these flaws with the AI etc I actually really like this scenario. In particular Ive played in several PBEM's here at Poly with up to 8 humans using this scenario and they have been really good fun

Maybe what you are all missing out on is playing against human opponents, which is much more of a challenging experience. The PBEM community here is thriving and there are scores of regular players in many games.

I really would reccomend the multiplayer PBEM experience to all to get the very best civ experience there is. Of course you cant always guarentee you will win but its so much better than SP that simply taking part is enough to satisfy your civ addiction

	14-09-2004 02:01									#23
	Put an end to popups!

Well noted! ChrisiusMaximus, however AI's I can beat up, but humans oh that sounds dangerous.

	14-09-2004 03:45									#24
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn It's really beyond the scope of the Civ III editor to fix. [There's no you must own all VPs this turn to win option.] Even without the MPP behavior, you can still trigue both domination and score based victories without capturing the other's capital playing either civ. And for that matter with more skill and/or playing lower than normal levels playing a 3rd party civ you can also become 1st tier and trigure either score or domination without taking either Paris or London.

It's very easy to use the editor to set this up properly. Just make Paris and London each worth a huge number of victory points while the other cities 0 points so that if either capital falls it triggers a victory. I'm making my Vietnam mod like this so that if either capital of north or south vietnam falls then a victory occurs but still not sure if I will include this cause if China backstabs North vietnam it will end the game too soon.

	14-09-2004 03:50									#25
	Put an end to popups!

quote: [SIZE=1] Yes, economics is our top strength. It's nothing that other countries couldn't do if they reformed their taxes & business laws. (Let failing companies go under to clean out the dead wood [re: Japan] and keep taxes in check to encourage new companies to form. [re: EU])

How about making the national reserve privately owned with only 20% of it bought by the government to produce a fractional reserve and debt based currency powered by the biggest national debt in the world? That's the real muscle behind the US economy, not to mention alleged drug laundering in the billions to help prop up the stock market when presidential elections are approaching. I think other countries might have a little difficulty in modeling their own economies on this. But its all good and nobody really knows for sure what goes on among those folks who tell Greenspan what to say to us.

	16-09-2004 00:22									#26
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quote: Originally posted by unscratchedfoot How about making the national reserve privately owned with only 20% of it bought by the government to produce a fractional reserve and debt based currency powered by the biggest national debt in the world? That's the real muscle behind the US economy, not to mention alleged drug laundering in the billions to help prop up the stock market when presidential elections are approaching. I think other countries might have a little difficulty in modeling their own economies on this. But its all good and nobody really knows for sure what goes on among those folks who tell Greenspan what to say to us.

A countries' national debt in isolation is just as meanigless as an indivual.

Donald Trump has lots and lots of debt, but has lots and lots of assets to compensate.

US also has the highest valued assets in the world, and like the typical American, most of it is realtively iliquid in the form of property.

Should the US sell off enough property to pay off the national debt right away? Nope, that would be just as nutty as an indivudal liquidating his house to wipe out all his debts.

What really matters are:
1. Interest rate your paying vs Interest Rate receivining.
2. Precent of money going to pay interest.
3. Amount of the debt reative to income.

By these measures the US debt is fine.

On the related deficit forcasts, there are such wide error margins that anything past five years is totally meaningless. (Large changes in forcasts not accounted for by change in fiscal policy.) For the 12 month they tend to be +/- $100 Billion and the margin continues to expand by at least that amount every year further you go.

With regard to the stock market, the late 1990s was largely reprize of the late 1920s. In both cases, they were over ethusanic about the stock market follwed by being over pesentimenstic about the stock market. The key difference was that Americans remained confident in their banks and the value of their homes during the bear market.

From where I'm sitting, looks to me like our economy (US based) is getting ready to boom again, I've seen a lot of pick up in the economy and while gas prices have large swings on a weekly basis, every thing else is stable, and my vechicle holds enough gas to buy it where it's cheap if I'm driving out of town or at the local price minimum when I'm staying in town. (I'm more observant of gas prices at the stations than anything else because of it's price swings and am also well aware that urban areas gas prices swing much more than rural areas.)

	16-09-2004 00:55									#27
	Tired of ads?

I am switching to bio-diesel like the Germans with a fine made German car, however it is still passing muster at customs (in south Seattle now). It seems they have 'issues' with vehicles that sport 50 miles or more to the gallon and that on diesel or bio-diesel. Forget gas stations, go to McDonalds and get their grease for free and process that!

	16-09-2004 02:04									#28
	Increase Your PM Length

I've got an '84 Diesel Mercedes... she works like a pro.

	16-09-2004 02:29									#29
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

In the US, imports of EU cars are hevially scurtized, the EU and US are testing different things, and so there are vechiles sold in the EU that don't pass US requirements and conversely vechicles sold in the US that don't pass EU requirements.

The tests the US use tend to make it much easier for heavier vechicles to pass than lighter weight ones.

To my knowelge, EU's safety tests tend to make it more difficult for "top-heavy" vechicles to pass.

quote: Originally posted by Antrine I am switching to bio-diesel like the Germans with a fine made German car, however it is still passing muster at customs (in south Seattle now). It seems they have 'issues' with vehicles that sport 50 miles or more to the gallon and that on diesel or bio-diesel. Forget gas stations, go to McDonalds and get their grease for free and process that!

	16-09-2004 02:34									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Alright joncnunn, there you go presenting facts, just when I had a goodly drama warming up! It seems to be heading our way in a few days or weeks.