13-09-2004 07:23									#31
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YAY! Im gett'n me a UZI!

	13-09-2004 07:24									#32
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what for?

	13-09-2004 07:27									#33
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uh... to shoot...

	13-09-2004 07:29									#34
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yourself?

	13-09-2004 07:31									#35
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quote: Uhm, land mine signs being more effective than landmines themselves would contradict the point you're trying to make. Lands mines are concealed. When you put a sign there, they aren't.

Not quite. The threat is not from the signs, but from the land mines you can't see. All the signs do is make you fear the land mines. So if you know there are plain clothed cops you can't see, then you fear them even if they might not be there. The "sign" is figurative.

Similarly, if you know the owner of this house could have a 30 round mag MP5, and alot of people put signs announcing they are armed regarless of whether they are, you might go to the next house or not rob one at all.

It is just like people putting security service stickers in their windows when they don't havethe service.

	13-09-2004 07:31									#36
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in your dreams

have you ever fired a fully automatic weapon?

	13-09-2004 07:34									#37
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Or to defend yourself from being hunted.

So, why do you need more than ten bullets? Are you worried about lynch mobs? Isn't it easier to just move to a saner area?

	13-09-2004 07:35									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos Not quite. The threat is not from the signs, but from the land mines you can't see. All the signs do is make you fear the land mines. So if you know there are plain clothed cops you can't see, then you fear them even if they might not be there. The "sign" is figurative. Similarly, if you know the owner of this house could have a 30 round mag MP5, and alot of people put signs announcing they are armed regarless of whether they are, you might go to the next house or not rob one at all.

Again... what you are talking about is displaying and advertising a threat of violence. Not concealing it.

If someone has a concealed weapon, they don'tcarry around a sign announcing it. They wait untill it's time, and surprise their victim. Like a land mine.

quote: It is just like people putting security service stickers in their windows when they don't havethe service.

No it's not... but carrying around an unloaded or fake gun would be like that.

	13-09-2004 07:37									#39
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They are fun, but I don't think that is a good reason to own a harbringer of death.

I am a private gun owner but I am also in the military. I own a 9mm and nothing else because that is the weapon I use when on watch and boarding, so I think it is a good idea to be proficient at it. Also, I never keep ammunition in the house because I don't believe in the whole home defense thing, thats why I pay taxes for the cops to run.

And though I might be proficient enough to defend my home with a weapon, the chances that I would have to are small, and all the other idiots who let their children kill themselves does not justify the maybe one time a year someone successfully defends their home with a gun.

	13-09-2004 07:40									#40
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There is a reason they bury the landmines after they put the signs up, so you don't know where the 1% of the area is dangerous.

The fact that I know there are concealed weapons out there makes me less likely to randomly accost someone, if I were inclined to do so.

Just like knowing that white Impala behind me might be a cop makes me not speed on the highway even when on final inspection it usually isn't a cop.

The sign is figurative, all that matters is you know.

	13-09-2004 07:41									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Spiffor How can you defend yourself for being hunted if you conceal your firepower?

quote: So, why do you need more than ten bullets? Are you worried about lynch mobs? Isn't it easier to just move to a saner area?

"Love your Country...fear your Government"

"The Ultimate power lies with the people"

	13-09-2004 07:45									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Kramerman in your dreams have you ever fired a fully automatic weapon?

I have fired and was qualified to instruct on every Nato issue infantry weapon of the late 80's, early 90's, from grenade to pistol through semi - automatic rifle to machine gun to heavy machine gun to light anti tank weapons. I also had a qualification to conduct live firing practice and trained others to do the same.

That is precisely why I do not believe any untrained idiot civilian should be able to go into a gun store and buy such weapons. The most likely outcome is they will accidentally shoot themselves or some innocent bystander. I do not believe such weapons should be stored in the home where children ot teenagers may get access to them.

I can't see any reason why people should have them.

	13-09-2004 07:46									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos There is a reason they bury the landmines after they put the signs up, so you don't know where the 1% of the area is dangerous. The fact that I know there are concealed weapons out there makes me less likely to randomly accost someone, if I were inclined to do so. Just like knowing that white Impala behind me might be a cop makes me not speed on the highway even when on final inspection it usually isn't a cop.

Is that really what prevents you from speeding? Paranoia?

That's a great way to make the streets safer... make everyone too afraid to walk on them. Never know who's carrying a gun.

Of course, concealed weapon don't acomplish that sort of fear anyways because, you know, they're concealed... and their presence isn't advertised. You don't become aware to the fact that people have concealed weapons untill you get shot in the back.

	13-09-2004 07:50									#44
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btw, I love guns, love firing them, would like to try an uzi and some other exotics although I prefer big machine guns, not pop guns, the bigger the better.

	13-09-2004 07:52									#45
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I speed all the time, but when a see a none descript crown vic or Impala I know there is a reasonable chance it might be a cop, so react accordingly.

And the concealed weapon/land mine thing doesn't work because there is a slim to none chance that you will encounter someone with such a weapon, so if you have the habit of robbing people you probobly don't think about it.

quote: That's a great way to make the streets safer... make everyone too afraid to walk on them. Never know who's carrying a gun

No, it keeps the streets safe by making people afraid of robbin other people walking on them safetly. Your statement makes no sence.

	13-09-2004 09:57									#46
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Real Assault weapons have been banned since the 1930's, this banned the manufacture of certain guns with irrelevant characteristics. The backers of the bill admitted that the ban was largely symbolic.

	13-09-2004 09:59									#47
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I remember the height of the crime wave in the early 90s, I distinctly recall two separate episodes where hand grenades were used in drive bys.

Yikes!

	13-09-2004 10:01									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker assaut weapons

	13-09-2004 10:10									#50
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quote: Originally posted by GePap Thank God we can allow any jokel to buy fully automatic weapons again- I mean,without them, wehat are terrorists going to use to kill us?

No fully automatic weapons or selective fire weapons were banned by this bill. This bill banned a few semi-automatic carbines (out of many on the market) because they looked bad. Literally. Like those TEC 9s, one of which was used at Columbine. The TEC 9 is actually less functional than a policeman's sidearm in every way. It is less concealable because of the bulky magazine, you can't effectively fire it with one hand because it is unbalanced by the bulky magazine, and it is too small to be effectively fire with two hands. It's a complete piece of crap, but appealed to the two morons who did the Columbine killings and to the equally clueless folks who wrote up this ban.

Just to be clear. No fully automatic or selective fire weapons are legally sold in the U.S. to civilians who don't hold special licenses like security companies or Hollywood special effect companies. The reason there is so much confusion is that the anti-gun rights side along with their willing backers in the press have succeeded in changing the meaning of the terms "assault weapon" and "assault rifle". These terms used to mean selective fire infantry weapons like the AK-47, or the M-14, G-3, M-16 etc. Now this term applies to semi-automatic carbines which may or may not be versions of these weapons with semi-auto only receivers. It could also apply to other semi-auto carbines with detachable box or even integral box magazines.

These sorts of weapons have been traditionally legal in the U.S. since they were invented about a century ago. The banned weapons had no particular characteristics which seperated them from other semi-automatic weapons other than a subjective "scariness" factor.

	13-09-2004 10:12									#51
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara No. The ones that were banned were banned because they were easily concealable, had flash suppressors, and had magazines of more than ten bullets. These were not weapons for people who like to hunt animals, but for people who like to hunt humans.

Show me the constitutional amendment that protects our right to hunt. It says the right to keep and bear arms, and the purpose is to make the citizenry capable of a greater degree of self-defense.

	13-09-2004 10:12									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse I can't see any justification at all for citizens to own military style assault rifles or other automatic weapons.

Then you'd be happy to know that the U.S. doesn't allow its citizens to do so.

	13-09-2004 17:18									#53
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If there are other bills on the books which ban automatic weapons and this bill is primarily symbolic then what's the point of making an effort of prevernting its passage?

	13-09-2004 18:16									#54
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Bad PR?

	13-09-2004 18:46									#55
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So are assault rifles legal now?

	13-09-2004 19:38									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Show me the constitutional amendment that protects our right to hunt. It says the right to keep and bear arms, and the purpose is to make the citizenry capable of a greater degree of self-defense.

A bunch of guys with assault rifles would be no more effective in fighting the US military here in the US than they are in Iraq, and given:

1. The guys in Iraq have more access to heavy explosives and fully automatic weapons than Mr. John Q public here

2. If it came to people in the US needing to fight the Army at home, then you can count the military being more brutal here than we are in Iraq right now

any militai today would be soundly beaten in any pitched battle and would have to resort to, well, terrorism to win anything.

The 'self defense" arguement is thin at best, and the ban made sense, because as Che said, it was not simply based on hopw something looked- it banned clips over 10 rounds and flash suppressors and shortened stocks.

	13-09-2004 19:41									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander It says the right to keep and bear arms, and the purpose is to make the citizenry capable of a greater degree of self-defense.

The purpose of which was to insure a large body of armed men so that the states would have a ready reserve of men should the Republic be invaded so that the Federal government would not need to keep a large military. We have a large military and no longer have civilian militias (that aren't connected to white supremecist secessionist movements).

Citizen militias stand no chance against the modern American military.

	13-09-2004 19:48									#58
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Just imagine- joe bob, out there with his gun, just waiting for them black UN helicopters to come out- when all of a sudden those dreadful and evil feds, just have a B-52 carpetbomb his position. That new assault rifle sure was able to stop those feds

	13-09-2004 19:54									#59
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Hunter with poor aim need automatic weapons to even the odds.

	13-09-2004 19:55									#60
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For all the hubbub about the citizen farmer militias, even back in 1776, when a militia man could get his hands on weapons even more effective than those of regular soldiers, only when heavily entrenched or with superior numbers and terrain were militias able to take on trained regiments. It was only after the Continentals put together their own regular army that they stood a chance, and it was this regular army,with help of regular French Regiments, that beat the English, not a bunch of militias.

Today, given the militias would lack artillery, armor, airpower, have some anti-aircraft abilities versun low-flying planes and helicopters but not against high flying planes, and that is not even considering that the evil feds would resort to WMD's, they stand no real chance. The only thing that would overturn the regime would be a general revolution, with the masses on the streets and the army and national guard turning against the regime. And that being so, yokels with assault rifles would be unnecessary.