13-09-2004 20:11									#61
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We do have state citizen militias, they are called the national guard.

As soon as the "militia" people realize this we can solve the imaginary recruiting problem.

You should only be able to own an assault weapon if your occupation requires you to be proficient in it, ie law enforcment and the military. Even then you should not have ammunition and if it were up to me you would store such weapons at federal facilities.

	13-09-2004 20:13									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos We do have state citizen militias, they are called the national guard.

This is incorrect. The National Guard was organized in opposition to the citizen militias, because in the 1880s, these militias became increasingly socialist and anarchist. Citizen militias were organized by the citizens, not the state.

	13-09-2004 20:16									#63
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quote: Originally posted by GePap 2. If it came to people in the US needing to fight the Army at home, then you can count the military being more brutal here than we are in Iraq right now

Yeah...Joe Q. Soldier just can't wait to shoot mom and dad.

	13-09-2004 20:20									#64
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National Guard is a direct decedent of Civil War state regiments.

Militias have always been organized by the state, armed by the state to a degree (had powder and ammunition stores for distribution) and called up and commanded by state officials.

They used the national guard for that purpose in the 1880's, not invented them. It just shows a long history of evolution which has transformed the entity into something that is a shadow of its original self, which is a testiment to the obsolesence of the original cast.

	13-09-2004 20:29									#65
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How it worked was, individual citizens asked the state for permission to create a unit. Since, by the 1880s, these units had been taken over by radical workers, the states outlawed the old militias and created the National Guards.

	13-09-2004 20:32									#66
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Or in otherwords reorganized, they were not completely seperate entities.

They kept the ones they liked (or the members they liked) and made them uberpowerful in relation to their preious selves. In the meantime they also made them more professional and better equiped.

However permission to organize from the state is tantimount to being organized by the state.

	13-09-2004 20:41									#67
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Yeah...Joe Q. Soldier just can't wait to shoot mom and dad.

Simple solution: use guys from a different state. Worked in the Civil War just fine. That, or shoot them from 30 miles away, or 30,000 feet.

Either way, if the US Military actually decided to take orders and fight the populace, having an assault rifle won't do **** for you.

	13-09-2004 22:08									#68
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I'm transferring to a local paramiltary unit so I'll be getting my own G3

(Stupid government shut down my old regiment)

	13-09-2004 22:15									#69
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Self-defense? Sikander, have you actually read the US constitution?

Militias are a feature of that most-neglected aspect of the set of American founding ideologies, Civic Republicanism. More Americans today should read Machiavelli's Discourses... Your "framers" certainly did.

	13-09-2004 22:16									#70
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quote: Originally posted by PLATO Yeah...Joe Q. Soldier just can't wait to shoot mom and dad.

Jackson State, Kent State, ring any bells?

	13-09-2004 22:24									#71
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara Jackson State, Kent State, ring any bells?

Point taken. One would hope it would be more in the mold of what happened in Moscow, but you are probably right...sadly.

	13-09-2004 22:24									#72
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	13-09-2004 22:31									#73
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Damn Frog

	13-09-2004 22:48									#74
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Hmm. Well, I suppose one thing people can do is simply pray that they won't be the victims of the next mass shooting spree that kills dozens — and results in a renewed push for legislation.

Gatekeeper

	13-09-2004 22:52									#75
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I could propobly kill more with my 9mm than most would with their rifles, easier to manuver through office cubicles

	13-09-2004 22:54									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I could propobly kill more with my 9mm than most would with their rifles, easier to manuver through office cubicles

well, with the right ammo you shoot through cublicles.

But then, in terms of killing lots of people you do better shooting at a crowd, NOT people by one by.

	14-09-2004 00:17									#77
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quote: Originally posted by Sikander Show me the constitutional amendment that protects our right to hunt.

The ninth?

	14-09-2004 00:23									#78
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quote: That's ridiculous mitchell. Freedom of speech doesn't mow down 21 people in a hailstorm of bullets.

what about people who let their guns to the talking?

	14-09-2004 00:37									#79
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Can you buy howitzers in the US, or have the pinkos banned them too?

	14-09-2004 04:13									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Patroklos I could propobly kill more with my 9mm than most would with their rifles, easier to manuver through office cubicles

what a cheery thought

	14-09-2004 05:11									#81
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Just saying, as has been noted, that what people object to concerning this ban is weapons that look more deadly than the average hand gun, not are more deadly.

If I am going into office buildings, where my victims are not wearing kevlar, steel trama plates, and whatnot a rifle has no more knock down power than my 9mm of .45 handgun I can still buy anywhere.

God knows the collapsable stock and flash suppressor is what made the shooting sprees in question so murderous. Even the larger magazines don't matter if I am killing unarmed civilians, takes maybe two seconds to change mags, and I can always have still legal double stacks.

	14-09-2004 05:12									#82
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COOOOOOL I JUST ORDERED MY FIRST ASSUALT WEAPON... Doesn't it make you sleep well at night to know that I'll be walking around with a machine gun..... THis is so COOOL... YIPPIE,

	14-09-2004 05:17									#83
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I feel indifferent about you walking around with a less weildly smaller caliber weapon with the same firing rate as my Sig 9.

Actually a little safer than if you had bought a handgun.

	14-09-2004 07:08									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp Can you buy howitzers in the US, or have the pinkos banned them too?

I have heard that in Texas you can own up to a 37 mm Anti-Tank howitzers.

However you can buy a Tank with the gun barrel plug. But in San Diego a few years ago, some guy with his tank had a lot fun running over other people cars.

	14-09-2004 09:29									#85
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quote: Originally posted by GePap A bunch of guys with assault rifles would be no more effective in fighting the US military here in the US than they are in Iraq, and given: 1. The guys in Iraq have more access to heavy explosives and fully automatic weapons than Mr. John Q public here 2. If it came to people in the US needing to fight the Army at home, then you can count the military being more brutal here than we are in Iraq right now any militai today would be soundly beaten in any pitched battle and would have to resort to, well, terrorism to win anything. The 'self defense" arguement is thin at best, and the ban made sense, because as Che said, it was not simply based on hopw something looked- it banned clips over 10 rounds and flash suppressors and shortened stocks.

They didn't ban clips over 10 rounds, they banned magazines over 10 rounds. Which seriously reduces the viability of a weapon for its constitutionally intended military purpose while doing almost nothing to its fear-mongered intended purpose as a murder weapon. I doubt that many people even know what flash supressors do or why one might want to have one, but I can't think of a single instance where a weapon with one was used in a crime where the flash supressor aided the criminal materially. And flash supressors add to the length of weapons that are somehow scarier because they can somehow be "concealed", much like a baseball bat can be concealed under a trench coat. No one will ever suspect it, no siree!

And we forgot to mention that bayonnet lugs have also now become legal. I guess they were banned because if they hadn't been, people who bought the right sort of bayonnet could have turned their modern semi-automatic carbines into fearsome spears!

As for the militia argument. It seems that the people of Iraq don't seem to believe your argument that they have no chance against the U.S. Army. They also seem to value even the sorts of weapons that are still legal in the U.S. as well as real assault weapons. Note that for all of our bombers, tanks, artillery etc. the most common weapon deployed by the U.S. is still the assault weapon, with the machine gun in second place. This is because these weapons still have a great amount of utility in modern warfare. How would we be doing in Iraq if the Army decided to simply trash all of our lead throwers because they are obslete? Not as well I can tell you.

Personal firearms provide enough of a force multiplier that simple police operations in their face are severely complicated. Replacing police operations with military operations are often even more complicated, with huge political implications. This is the whole foundation of guerilla warfare, and I can't believe I have to explain that to two very intelligent posters, one of whom is a communist!

	14-09-2004 09:43									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Buck Birdseed Self-defense? Sikander, have you actually read the US constitution? Militias are a feature of that most-neglected aspect of the set of American founding ideologies, Civic Republicanism. More Americans today should read Machiavelli's Discourses... Your "framers" certainly did.

The American of that era faced plenty of potential dangers which were clear enough to the framers just within their own experiences. Foreign wars with the French, Indian Wars and wars against the Tyranny of their own King created a reliance on being able to defend oneself both personally and collectively at varying levels of organization. Having a weapon stored in the town armory was not proof against an Indian raid, and might even prove a civic as well as personal disaster if the Indians got to the armory first. Nor were outlaws and marauders of other stripes completely unknown on the frontiers. An armed populace was thus a check against surprise attack as well as brigandage.

To fight against foreign invasion a simple town militia wasn't enough. We needed artillery and a leavening of professional fighting men to be effective against regulars, and it was a lack of both in many cases that doomed so many efforts in the War of 1812 as well as the War of Independence. But we also remembered that it was professional troops who obeyed the centralized command structure and fought against us. It took some time to build our own trust in our own institutions. Once we did so we built a fairly effective system of state militias led by small cadres of professional soldiers. This arrangment served well until the Civil War placed it against itself and forced a much more complete mobilization of the male population.

	14-09-2004 09:47									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker The ninth?

Touche!

	14-09-2004 11:25									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Thorn COOOOOOL I JUST ORDERED MY FIRST ASSUALT WEAPON... Doesn't it make you sleep well at night to know that I'll be walking around with a machine gun..... THis is so COOOL... YIPPIE,

	14-09-2004 15:08									#89
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the question is do you export them? are there internet sites where I can order them and have them shipped?

like uziboxoffice.com or so...

	14-09-2004 16:03									#90
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here