15-09-2004 05:36									#31
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I'd prefer 70% water, also. I agree that with six players you'll end up with too many poor starts with 80% water...

Also, I suggest that Ag civs can call for a restart iff they run it by a neutral 7th party who agrees their start sucked royally and it's not just a pansy river request. It's not fair to penalize Ag civs in that way just because they are abused sometimes, and in the scheme of things if you thing Ag is a more powerful civ trait than any other, just say "no ag civs."

	15-09-2004 10:48									#32
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sounds good. i'll pm my choices in a moment.

	15-09-2004 13:19									#33
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 I'd prefer 70% water, also. I agree that with six players you'll end up with too many poor starts with 80% water...

I take back what I said about starts being poor under these settings- I just generated 3 maps and all 18 starts were good enough I wouldn't restart. The key is that we're only doing 6 tribes- when I generated a map under these settings with 8 Civs, 3 or 4 of them were poor positions. 80%/standard works out well for 6 tribes. If did go with 70%, I think it would be best to switch to a small map...

quote: Also, I suggest that Ag civs can call for a restart iff they run it by a neutral 7th party who agrees their start sucked royally and it's not just a pansy river request. It's not fair to penalize Ag civs in that way just because they are abused sometimes, and in the scheme of things if you thing Ag is a more powerful civ trait than any other, just say "no ag civs."

I like this rule because it is a simple, non-moded way to give the other traits a benefit over ag. It still doesn't have a serious impact on ag's power; If you remember, we had this rule in Double Blind, but I still picked the only ag tribes 1-2-3 (and didn't get them :-).

	15-09-2004 13:23									#34
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It looks like I have everyone's picks but Trip's...

	15-09-2004 21:04									#35
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Sorry for the delay, internet has been down lately...

	16-09-2004 12:07									#36
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1> Netherlands
2> Celts
3> Maya
4> Scandanavia
5> Aztecs

	16-09-2004 12:10									#37
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm getting hit with alot of work while trying to squeeze in as much outdoor stuff as I can before the weather heads south. I might be able to set this up tomorrow morning or evening, or friday night (CDT) at the lastest.

Anything else I'm forgetting...?

	16-09-2004 14:20									#38
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Ivory for me, please.

	16-09-2004 20:33									#39
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Rookie:
Celts
Egypt
Hittites
Babylon
India

And here are the results of the Scottish Jury:
1 - China
2 - Japan
3 - Persia
4 - Maya
5 - France

sn00py:
Celts
Ottomans
Greeks
Persians
Byzantines

He who's words speak for themselves:
japan,
babylon,
germany,
byzantines,
ottomans

Trip:
Maya
Celts
Sumeria
Aztecs
Chinese

Moonbars has China
self biased has Japan
Trip has Maya
Rommel2D has Netherlands
Theseus has Egypt
and
snoopy369 has The Ottomans

	16-09-2004 20:37									#40
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Haha, never thought I'd get the Mayans...

	16-09-2004 20:38									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus Ivory for me, please.

And snoopy requested a new pair of shoes. Did we agree to wager on the outcome of this game...?

	16-09-2004 20:49									#42
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Oh yeah, the last thing- Everyone needs to answer three questions:

1. Are you familiar with the Iron Civer etiquette/exploit list and willing to go by it for this game?

2. Do you wish to use the optional diplomacy limitations listed under rule 1-2?

3. What level of Combat Reporting would you like?

	16-09-2004 20:50									#43
	Remove this text

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. 2.5

	16-09-2004 21:29									#44
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1. Yes
2. What is the option?
3. 2

	16-09-2004 23:56									#45
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1. Yes
2. a - yes
b - no
c - yes
d - no
3. level 2, for simplicity

I would like to remove "declared on the foriegn advisor" and replace with "declared on the tracker thread.

	17-09-2004 04:00									#46
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1) I agree to the list, though, again, I would prefer if chaining wasn't allowed...

2) Sure

3) 2.5

	17-09-2004 04:13									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2d 1-2 Players shall not exchange in-game information until they are represented on each other's foreign advisor's screen. They shall not exchange graphic map information before both have knowledge of Navigation. a) In diplomacy without an embassy between the Tribes, a player may only offer technology already known by their Tribe. They may not offer or ask for unknown techs. b) Players shall not coordinate military action unless an alliance is formally declared in the foreign advisor's screen. c) Players shall not make reference to specific distances or directions until both have knowledge of Map Making. d) Players shall not make Mutual Protection Pacts or Trade Embargoes unless they are declared in the foreign advisor's screen.

a) no
b) yes
c) no
d) yes

Level 2 or 2.5 is fine.

(Yes, i realize this is the opposite of moonbars ^^)

	17-09-2004 04:30									#48
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haha, we are quite evenly divided

If theseus is happy I will move to 2.5 combat reporting.

I have no problem with outlawing ship chaining.

Not so happy to move on the other options.

	17-09-2004 04:33									#49
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I don't think it's ever been a surprise that I don't like chaining - it's completely unrealistic and I personally think that it hurts gameplay. Yeah, infinite RRs are the same way, I wish they didn't work that way also...

	17-09-2004 04:50									#50
	Remove this text

Basically the reason i split A/C and B/D are because A/C are "strategy limiters" while B/D are "openness requirements". IE, A/C are limiting what we can or cannot do as a diplomatic tactic or strategy, while B/D are more specifically requiring open disclosure of alliances and pacts (admittedly a particular strategy, ie secret pacts, is limited here, but it's more specific).

In Iron Civ games i'm happy to go with A/C but in more "for fun" games i'm not really interested in limiting my options to discuss techs and/or maps with other people. I see it as basically making diplomacy less useful, which is the point of MP to me.

B/D, on the other hand, is important to me, because they require open disclosure of pacts etc. I certainly don't mind making deals behind closed doors, but I think that alliances or their equivalents that are advanced to the point of tactical discussion would be discovered by espionage in the real world, and thus should be in the open. Trade sanctions, I feel likewise, both in that they would be discovered in the real world quite quickly, and 'secret' deals to not trade with someone is not beneficial to the balance of the game -- if i'm being screwed by the rest of you, I want to know it.

Now, the interesting question to me is -- what about alliances etc. before they're in the diplo screen? I'm certainly for allowing them -- as long as they are declared in the thread... perhaps that's what you meant, Moonbars?

	17-09-2004 05:10									#51
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Revised:

2) Yes, across the board
3) 2.5

	17-09-2004 10:05									#52
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The reference to the foreign advisor screen is there to indicate certain conditions in the game's mechanics must be met. Players must show up on another's advisor screen before any communication takes place; they must have an embassy and declare an alliance to coordinate combat (so that citizen moods and war weariness are accurately reflected); and they must formally declare MPPs and Trade Embargoes for similar reasons (mood, WW, +the affect on trade networks of 3rd parties).

All four options are meant to be accepted or declined as a whole cloth for simplicity. I'd hope we can improve the quality of play without pulling out the line item veto, turning this into a congressional lawmaking session sim...

As for chaining- it hasn't come up in anything I've been involved with yet, although it might here with continents. RR movement is weak and chaining is almost the naval equivalent, but I think half of a fix is worse than no fix in this case. How specifically would a ban be implemented anyway? No transfer of units at sea, or only if they awake and move under their own power?

	17-09-2004 10:31									#53
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quote: Originally posted by snoopy369 Now, the interesting question to me is -- what about alliances etc. before they're in the diplo screen? I'm certainly for allowing them -- as long as they are declared in the thread... perhaps that's what you meant, Moonbars?

To be precise, generally cooperating with another player isn't the same as an alliance. An alliance is a specific diplomatic state involving war with a third party. Since the game mechanics affect citizens moods when at war, such alliances should not be formed without an in-game declaration, if the options are included.

This is a good point about the A/C and B/D groupings. Perhaps A and C should be made part of the 'mandatory' etiquette since they directly affect the mechanics, and only B/D should be optional? (Sorry if that works against your preferences, snoop. ) I'll bring it up in the IC thread when I have the time.

One thing that could probably use some clarification: Trade embargoes are only concerned with resources- exchanging money and technology are not considered "trade" in CivlizationIII.

	17-09-2004 11:03									#54
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And all you poor doomed souls that don't recognize the power and majesty of the Ag trait should contemplate a restart before passing your first turn along...

	17-09-2004 13:18									#55
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ag trait be damned. A win with a Ag tribe is no win at all Bring it on 2Dman!

I actually agree with snoopy here, I also want openness, the reason I oppose B/D as they restrict your diplomacy until the industrial age, and the game is won by then.. If we instead had to declare such alliances in This thread, then that's fine with me - that is indeed what I meant. Also, we could make it a requirement that if two parties declare war on a third in the thread, they also have to declare on that party in the game - no possibility for one of the aggressors to sit at peace and research, whilst the other barracks and troops up..

	17-09-2004 19:03									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D And all you poor doomed souls that don't recognize the power and majesty of the Ag trait should contemplate a restart before passing your first turn along...

Food shall be your undoing.

	17-09-2004 19:50									#57
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something tells me i'm going to be completely out of my league. oh well. damn the torpedoes.

	17-09-2004 19:59									#58
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also, level two combat reporting sould be sufficent.

	17-09-2004 21:15									#59
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4000 BC sent to Moonbars.

Good luck all.

But not too much.

	18-09-2004 02:07									#60
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