13-09-2004 13:56									#1
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from MZ:

quote: Greetings from Swissland Now that I have some time at my mom's office, I'd just like to drop some info which I didn't have time to send you guys before I left. Basically, I had managed to plan and assemble the GoW Expeditionary Force ("GeForce" - yes, I'm suing nVidia for copyright infringment after the war) for a launch date of 1240 AD. The force would have comprised: 40 Infantry 40 Tanks 40 Marines 24 Artillery supported by: 12 bombers on 3 carriers 16 bombers on land (if Jackson is to be hit) 16 destroyer escorts 3 carriers 18 transports This force would have been able to land at Jackson or on Dye Fields on 1270 AD. This was a little map I made for the private forum: GoW War Plan Now, unfortunately there is a wee problem. Panzer32 messed up last turn's delicate builds and it seems that we will be 5 tanks short of what was intended. So, either we launch as planned on 1240 with only 35 tanks... or we launch on 1250 (with D-Day being 1280) with the full set of 40 tanks. I honestly think this should be discussed amongst you two especially since it would be good to know what GS's force will be and when (and where) it is expected to land. In any case, I will be checking the internet sporadically in the mornings (heh, we're practically in the same time zone!) so PM me or Panzer so we can get this whole thing going. Oh and btw, our part of the invasion is called Operation Terrorblock. I will probably have a PC only until october (damn Switzerland's archaic real estate services), here's hoping the invasion isn't launched till then so I can have more oversight on GoW's part. Cya -MZ

	13-09-2004 16:20									#2
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we need to hit on schedule

it takes 10 turns for them to produce 5 tanks? wtf

no offensive settlers? what are their tanks going to be doing, just hunkering down in Jackson?

	13-09-2004 16:38									#3
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Sleepy, dear chap, the difference between 1240 and 1250 is 10 years, also known as 1 turn...

	13-09-2004 16:52									#4
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And yes, they should definitely take some settlers along. With Tanks, they're going to need at least 2 to have a shot at Legopolis from Dye Fields or Jackson on the first turn.

Plus they might want to have their last staging post 1 tile closer to Dye Fields. As it stands, they can move transports into Jackson, but not DF, which means that only from Jackson can they continue a first turn offensive. From DF they need to spend a turn unloading units first (so they don't get fortification bonuses either).

	13-09-2004 17:11									#5
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Timeline (based on 1280 D-Day - the later option)

Turn Year Event
233 1180
234 1190
235 1200 Celebrate start of 13th century
236 1210
237 1220
238 1230 Possible GS southern task force loads up and moves out from T-5 to T-4
239 1240 GS South moved from T-4 to T-3
240 1250 GS Northern group sets sail, GS South moves (T-3->T-2) GoW group sets sail
241 1255 GS North and South move (T-2->T-1) We finish researching COMPUTERS
242 1260 All groups at T positions, hoping not to get to slaughtered by Lego
243 1265 D-Day. Amphibious invasions by GS and GoW

Personally, I'm willing to delay for 1 turn to get the extra 5 tanks, unless there is a strong reason not to (such as Lego getting an important tech that turn or the one before, giving them a significant number of tanks / MI suddenly). Lego tanks are less of a problem, since they can't be upgraded to, and they'll probably time pre-builds to finish lots of tanks the first turn they have MT, so the second turn of them having it shouldn't be a big problem.

It's getting close - that southern decoy group should be setting off pretty soon (if we are actually using it, that is).

EDIT: add in ETA on computers, change in turn lengths from vmxa1

Last edited by vulture on 13-09-2004 at 21:04

	13-09-2004 20:42									#6
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The turns after 240 will be 5 year intervals.

Yes we can wait as long as it will not cause them to field units (tanks) they would not otherwise have.

	13-09-2004 21:10									#7
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We should clarify the date issue with GoW, since they seem to be assuming 10 years per turn all the way, and we don't want any timing slip-ups.

I don't think a 1 turn delay makes a big difference re Lego getting tanks. We aim to hit them hard in the first turn, and tanks aren't that hot on defence. And one turn's production of tanks isn't going to make a big difference to what they can do to us in revenge. On the flip side, 5 extra GoW tanks could mean an extra 2 Lego cities in dust before they can respond, and that's going to be worth more than the extra turn of tanks for Lego.

IMHO - your mileage may vary.

Should we send the timeline to GoW (without the computers estimate) to sort out our timing issues? We should clarify the overall strategy - first turn land and blitz to do maximum damage, or land and consolidate, and strike out slowly (which seems to be what GoW are building for). We don't nescessarily have to do the same thing, but we should at least know what to expect from each other.

Personally, I think they ought to be razing Legopolis on the first turn. Lego have a few wonders there, do they not?

	13-09-2004 21:16									#8
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Thanks for the comments and observations. Vulture, if you or anyone wants to get on with discussing and clarifying things with GoW, please do so. I have splat-all time this week, and will be able to little more than play the turn, post up incoming PMs and offer quick replies.

	13-09-2004 21:42									#9
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What about MI's, do they have that tech yet and when would we expect them to get it? That would make a huge difference.

I don't like hitting infantry with tanks, but I really hate trying MI with tanks.

	14-09-2004 04:00									#10
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quote: Originally posted by vulture Sleepy, dear chap, the difference between 1240 and 1250 is 10 years, also known as 1 turn...

erm


um


hmm

	14-09-2004 13:31									#11
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vmxa1: I don't think Lego is going to get to computers in time. IIRC they are a tech or two behind us in compulsory techs (not including atomic theory and electronics, which I don't believe they've researched yet), so even if they could do 4 turn research on computers (the MI tech), they're probably over 16 turns away from that point right now, probably more (computers is expensive, and I'm not sure exactly how far they have to go in the industrial techs). No way they get to MI before we land, and possibly not for 10 turns after, even assuming they can continue researching at their current pace mid-war.

Draft PM to GoW. Comments please.

quote: Dear GoW chaps, First, to clear up the timing. Be aware that turns change from 10 years to 5 years in 1250 AD. As we understand it, the proposed timeline (with 1 turn delay for 5 more tanks) is therefore: Turn Year Event 233 1180 Current turn (as of time of writing) 234 1190 235 1200 Celebrate start of 13th century 236 1210 237 1220 238 1230 Possible GS southern task force loads up and moves out from T-5 to T-4 239 1240 GS South moved from T-4 to T-3 240 1250 GS Northern group sets sail, GS South moves (T-3->T-2) GoW group sets sail 241 1255 GS North and South move (T-2->T-1) 242 1260 All groups at T positions, hoping not to get to slaughtered by Lego 243 1265 D-Day. Amphibious invasions by GS and GoW Does this match up with your plans, or do we have a mis-communication somewhere? We are fine with the extra turn delay. Five more tanks in the initial turn's invasion force is probably worth more than what Lego can produce in the extra turn. Second issue: strategy. Our plan is to do the amphibious assault, move transports into the city, unload, and go on the offensive on the same turn. Tanks only have 2 moves, which isn't enough to take more than one or two cities normally, so we're taking along several settlers to allow us to reach further. If the interior cities are lightly defended, that allows us to get a whole load of them in one turn (with the aim of razing their FP city). From your plans, it looks like you're planning to take a coastal city, and then sit in it to ride out the Lego counter-attack. With no settlers you won't be able to hit any new cities on the first turn. You need two to get from Jackson or Dye Fields to Legopolis. And your rally point for the final assault is (we think) one tile too far from Dye Fields - the transports will only be able to move next to it, so all units will have to move into the city, and therefore can't do anything else (or fortify). While it is obviously up to you what strategy you go for, it would probably be good to know what to expect from each other. Currently we are planning to take and raze as many cities as possible in the first turn, whilst also holding a heavily defended coastal city to channel reinforcements through. What is your overall strategy?

	14-09-2004 13:34									#12
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Looks good to me, Vulture.

	14-09-2004 20:09									#13
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Coordinating with GoW is going to be key.

Just curious: are we hiding the whole "GS is gonna get computers" thing from them?

-Arrian

	14-09-2004 20:12									#14
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I think we're just keeping quiet about computers for now. I don't think we intend to be too evasive about it should the subject arise.

	14-09-2004 20:41									#15
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So we do not see ND making any conributions to the attack. That makes them target #2 in my book, especially given all the past.

	15-09-2004 02:38									#16
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ND may have to be "dealt with" yes. But then again, it may be that once we take out Lego, ND & GoW will team up once again to finish us. They're awfully cozy.

-Arrian

	15-09-2004 03:15									#17
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Don't matter, it will be two on one at some point, if Lego goes down. It would be nice if it was us and GoW on ND, but ND is on my list in any event.

	15-09-2004 17:05									#18
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Next GoW question (also in GoW diplo thread)

quote: Hello vulture, thanks for the info. It seems we will be delaying to get those extra tanks. Also your point on the settlers was correct, I had forgotten to include them in that plan (I actually wrote that plan initially for the private forum just hours before catching my plane ), rest assured GoW will have settlers (3 of them) in the force. Also regarding the distance to Dye Fields, yes, at the very moment we will likely sail from one tile south than planned so our fleet can sail into Dye Fields directly. That map was made considering Jackson as the main target and Dye Fields as a secondary only-if-Jackson-is-too-heavily-defended. ND is probably going to spy for us to see which of the two is better. One last question, what is the size of the force GS plans to send over? -MZ

Is there any reason we shouldn't give them our force info? And where is it hiding anyway?

	15-09-2004 17:32									#19
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We should share. They told us what they're sending.

-Arrian

	15-09-2004 17:39									#20
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From the turn thread we were discussing this stuff in (linked available in the GAUL thread):

quote: So we'll have: 23 Destroyers 23 Transports 100 Marines/Tanks 15 MI 15 I 2 Explorers (should be enough considering that Conqs will be along too) 6 Settlers

Of those 100 attack units, it was my understanding that 50+ will be marines. 56 was the number I suggested, which leaves 44 Tanks.

I also thought that at some point we dicussed bringing along a carrier, but perhaps leaving it empty as fleet defense/decoy (because we'd already built it?).

I'd tell MZ we're going for roughly 50 marines, 50 tanks, 30 inf, 20 destroyers, 6 settlers, and also that RP is bringing some Conq's for pillaging ops.

Additionally, does anyone think we might want a team of workers too? It might not be readily apparent right now what we'd do with them, but workers are something you hate to find you need but don't have, you know? I think we have some empty transports in the fleet. Perhaps 1 of those can carry some workers over.

-Arrian

	15-09-2004 18:10									#21
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Message as suggested by Arrian sent. Check GoW diplo log for further info.

	16-09-2004 11:07									#22
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Guys, some comments.... those forces I predicted a time ago, was based on Turn 240. Not turn 245.

Further, if they counted alright, they are planning on D-day in turn 250 or something close, not 245. Which is too late for us, Lego will most definately have loads of tanks by that time. They have to hurry up, e.g. by loosing the bombers. Also, forget the extra 5 tanks, this means 10 tanks from Lego in the mean time, which is far worse!

As to our plans: I would not tell them which city we hit, nor how many settlers we bring (okay, the 6 is fine, as this will be our initial force only, we're planning on more)

MI/inf: I'm not sure. obvioulay they will have noticed we have entered the modern era, and can imagine we're going for computers. I don't mind to share this with them, but at a rpice, and I strongly doubt they can afford that price before invasion time. It would however shorten their needed time, in case they are still planning on inf builds.

Basically, I want to sell everything to GoW right now, but the moment we've invaded Lego, we have to realize that all deals are off. They will not blink to turn their coat, and invade us them moment they see an opportunity, and the gain in doing so will only be bigger in case they still have outstanding debts.

final thing: we could ask what they think of ND, and how they see their relation evolving. We're sending most of our defense over as well, we shouldn't tell them, but if at all possible we should press them in doing the same. Less time needed for extra forces, is better for us in all aspects: the longer we wait, the longer their production power has to catch up with us.

DeepO

	16-09-2004 16:01									#23
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DeepO - check the timeline. The 1280 AD date seems to have been based on assuming 10 year turns all the way (since their transports move 5 tiles from 1270 to 1280). I sent the timeline above to MZ, and he accepted it as fine. That's with D-Day in turn 243.

If you think I've got it wrong and we still have a miscommunictaion, then I'd suggest that the best strategy would be for you to PM GoW ASAP (aren't acronyms great) to nail down dates and turn numbers.

	20-09-2004 13:57									#24
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Okay, I admit I only had a glimpse on the precise timeline... I'm back from holiday, and will go over this in more detail tomorrow evening (tonight some social requirements to take care off). It sounded fishy, though...

DeepO