17-09-2004 06:11									#31
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Scenario: Guy watching another guy paint a house...inside and out...

"You missed a spot"

"Where exactly?"

"I don't have time to tell you."

"Thanks, maybe I'll get that spot covered with the second coat."

"Would you like a brush?"

"Nah, I'll just point out things I see when I happen to walk by."

"Gee, thanks for the help."

"No problem; it's because I care."

"Well, if you ever do have the time, I would appreciate some help."

"Yeah, I got another house accross the street I have to check out now. See ya!"

	17-09-2004 06:13									#32
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Fine, don't want my help, I won't offer any of it any more.

Good luck against GWT, you'll need it.

	17-09-2004 07:01									#33
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Calm down Trip. I was only displaying a bit of humor. I know what you are after and I don't think you are wrong in your opinion of building up for a possible GWT invasion.

I did ask for your help, btw. You just say your too busy and I made a joke out of it. That's all.

	18-09-2004 21:27									#34
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So what kind of millitary units are required? ie. NM/cats/horse/ships and how many in what kind of time frame.

I'd rather build units in cities which don't need any more improvements to grow to size 12.

Also is there any kind of defensive plan knocking around, are we going to fight GWT or are going to block the tiles or maybe fight them in the water?

The one thing that sucks about Carthage is the no 20 sheild spears due to NM's. Efficiency wise there is only catapults avaliable in cities that give 20spt of which we may have quite a few as important cities. Dom, Chiquita, Banana, Ming, certainly AP and Freedom city, HoD should all be there or there abouts (after wonders for most of those).

Too many cats may not be too good against a fast moving enemy. Although we can micromanage to give 15 spt but that doesn't really help too much. As we can build muskets at the same time as NM's 3 turn muskets may be quite good if not too sheild intensive?

Then again things will go a bit crazy with the GA and we should be able to push quite a few cities into 30 shield monsters.

Also probably the most important question is how many horse units do we want to build with the IA just over the horizon?

We currently have Karina and BFC buiding millitary units, BFC needs to be building NM's instead of Muskets, when Big Bend finishes it's Library in 2 turns it can be set to 10 spt then build a barracks in 4 turns then join in the NM production so that we're producing a NM per turn overall.

Then we can see where to go from there.

When I say NM it's only cos that's what I'd build, substitute any units you'd like to build instead, I don't want to be held responsible for what kind of units are built

Also of note, if we want to do the defensive by navy thing we might want to go all out to get Magnetism asap.

	18-09-2004 23:32									#35
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I'd like to have Frigates to defend with now, getting towards Ironclads ASAP. Sinking a transport with only one or two units is well worth it.

We get a picket up. Then substation Frigates/Ironclads every other picket so that tey can reach a picket on either side in one turn reacting to the approach of a transport.

As far a building unit to block a landing I don't see why Catapults aren't just as good as any other unit. Having plenty of artillary is fine with me. With enough you can just about decimate any landing party without havig to worry about losing many of your own troops.

	19-09-2004 00:07									#36
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Don't build any Frigates. Wait for Ironclads, or even better, Destroyers.

The most important thing is building a new force of Horsemen/Knights/Cavalry. LOTS of them. We may lose all that we have over in GWT land. If that happens, we're completely defenseless. We need Knights/Cavalry both for blocking tiles from landing and for attacking. Chances are GWT will blast through CFC and we'll be facing a land war anyways.

Rule of thumb - we can never have too many mobile units, especially with GWT's Ansar and the fact that they have Leo's Workshop.

What we also need right now is naval sentries to watch the most vital sea lanes for a direct GWT assault. That could be covered through the boats we have out now once they return. However, we have quite a bit of stuff to cover so we'll probably need even more boats. CFC should use their boats also to watch their coast.

I'm almost 100% sure that CFC will crumple with almost no effort with an impending GWT assault, but they could at least give us some warning.

	19-09-2004 07:59									#37
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NMs... well a few will be useful for upgrading, but I was thinking last night about the units and decided that yes we did need more mounted warriors (whatever we can build right now). I see Trip has essentially got to the same conclusion ahead of me. We have a large amount of land to cover, and Knights will give us the mobility to shift our forces to provide a more effective blockade. Also, these will be the forces we lose most of in GWTland, so they need to be replaced. A counter-attack if faced with an invasion is the best possible defense we could hope for, rather than having to wait to be attacked and using a defensive force. If there is an invasion we have all the greater movement bonus with Knights in our own territory too - our 6 moves along roads to GWT's 1 or 2 compared to 3 moves vs 1 or 2 if we use NMs/other defensive units.

As for the naval advance-warning fleet, there's no point in building loads of Caravels - they only upgrade to Transports. We may want one or two for movement purposes, but I think we should have Galleys for the most part, as they can attack just as effectively as Caravels, and can travel in the Ocean now. Of course this applies only until we get Ironclads, when we should of course start moving towards making the curtain around our lands an Iron one.


I'll try have a look at cities tonight. I'm sure that some of the ones I have gone over already can easily move to units for a time before their growth means we should look at something like an Aqueduct, and some cities are ideal for unit-building.

	19-09-2004 13:54									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Don't build any Frigates. Wait for Ironclads, or even better, Destroyers.

If we have the ability to get Ironclads then fine, I'd agree.

How is our tech line going to go?

We have 2 turns left on Chemistry when we next get the turn.

I'd say make a beeline to Magnetism, with Banking, ToG, Metalurgy, then Steam power. Going back to MT once we have Steam Power. Now, it's possible that CGn may get us Steam Power with their "free tech". But, let's not count on it.

So, that makes, at best, 10 turns to Magnetism.

Which means it is then, at best, another 12 turns to Steam Power (if free tech is Steam Power) or 16 turns if not. We won't likely get Steam Power in 4 turns either if we are cutting our Iron and upgrading Horsies. But, let's say we do it the minimum number of turns without CGN getting it for free. Is anyone buying that? 16 turns till Steam Power? I mean if we disconnect the Iron, it won't happen, guaranteed. We have to make a choice. Spend on research all out and build modern units with the Iron connected or go partial on research saving some cash for upgrades.

What's it going to be?


So, we have 16-24 turns between being able to build Frigates and IronClads. Now, I truly believe I would rather try to kill a few GWT galley's with Frigates than our own Galley's. These Frigates won't go to waste either; they can be used later on as "sentries". I'mnot talking about build a fleet of them, but maybe 3-6 of them to hold us over till we actually get Steam Power.

Here's a picture of the tech tree. The blue dots are techs we have including Chemistry (because we will have it in 2 turns). If someone thinks we should put these techs in a different order then please let me know why.

	19-09-2004 13:59									#39
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Also, if we do disconnect the Iron, what do you think of just building a shite load of Warrior's! A lot of cities could put out one per turn. They can block a tile just as well as any other unit. I know they don't upgrade but to Guerilla (6-6-1)...

	19-09-2004 14:02									#40
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If we keep an eye on tech costs (or rather, after the next two turns get CGN or CFC to tell us the cost for them, especially Chemistry), then we can tell when GWT has a new tech, and we then we can gift it to CFC so that they can research in collaboration with our research. For example if GWT gets Chemistry sometime soon, we can then gift that to CFC (and CGN, I guess) so we can get CFC working on, say, MT, whilst we do the others in our queue. Then when we are ready and not before (so as to prevent discounting the cost to GWT for MT) we can swap with CFC for MT. This will then cut costs for GWT towards two techs, but I think getting MT ahead of GWT is worth that. We should try to prevent cutting GWT's research costs as much as possible but making sure we actually GET those techs ahead of them is even more impotant.

	19-09-2004 14:09									#41
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If we could do 4 turn, or even 5-6 turn research without the help of GWT gold, then I would say it would be great to have CFC do some research. Though, I think they would take up to 12 turns, maxed out, to get a tech right now. We have the libraries to do research; we are taking advatage of this fact by using CFC's gold input to counter our putting nearly most of our commerce into research. It allows us to use "deficit researching". This puts our Libraries to full use. We need more gold from CFC! (FAM ?)



Maybe having them go for MT is not a bad idea though.

	19-09-2004 16:19									#42
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I had a look at the tech costs and compared them with our current beakers-per-turn (which will only go up). I will dig those up again, but I think I concluded that at our current rates we could manage each tech we needed for the next age in 5 or at most 6 turns each.

	19-09-2004 16:57									#43
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quote: Also of interest, we can manage at present 320 or so beakers per turn whilst still posting a small profit, or 370 with a small (22gpt) loss. With this, we can keep up with 4 turn techs for Economics and Printing Press, should we want them. Otherwise we can do all other techs (Metallurgy, Physics, Military Tradition, Democracy, Theory of Gravity, Magnetism) at 5-6 turns, depending on whether we want to run a small profit or a small loss.

I posted this in another thread.

Thus once we have Chemistry, assuming no change in beakers per turn (so a latest-limit for discovery), we can get in 4 turns; Banking (1248 beakers); in 5 turns: Physics and Metallurgy (1536 beakers), and, (assuming an increase of only 10 beakers per turn by this point) Magnetism and Theory of Gravity (1632 beakers. MT would take only 5 turns as well and to get it down to 4 turns we'd need to have an increase over this time to 384 beakers - not perhaps beyond the realms of possibility. That's every tech from this age on BF's list, for a total of 24 turns until we reach the next age (not including MT). Steam Engine costs a whopping 2880 beakers, so that would take us 7 turns or more, even by then, unless we had one or more of Cope's and Newton's.

Just looking at hypothetical wonder prebuilds, if we assume BF's order for tech discoveries, it's 21 turns from now until we get ToG. Thus a prebuild for Newton's would start about NOW, with 20 shields per turn (400 shields). Others are too far off to worry about for a few techs (eg Darwin's).

Just a final point, we might want to consider getting Smith's, as that would cut our costs a lot, freeing up more for military or beakers.

	19-09-2004 21:22									#44
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Okay, here's my vision:

Unit builds

Within the next 20 turns we should, ideally, have about 50 fastmovers (Cavalry) total. Yes, that's quite a few and will be a pretty large investment, but if nothing else they'll be good for blocking coastal tiles up until GWT gets Marines, which is pretty far away.

We have, what, 32 Knights right now? So that would be 18 more Horsemen that we need to build. Plus the gold to upgrade them. It will be costly, yes.

Meanwhile, NMs are also good. Muskets are too expensive to build unless you know a threat is imminent. 1 extra defense isn't really worth 2x the cost. Catapults are also useful, as they can block tiles and later become Artillery which are amazing weapons.

I see nothing wrong with building a lot of Caravels. As was said, yes, they do upgrade to Transports. Which is great because when the time comes we won't actually have to build any. We'll just switch out the Caravels we have with Destroyers and then upgrade the Caravels when they get home. Insta-amphibious invasion force.

We need pickets. Badly. Pickets will be what saves us because we will never have enough units to cover EVERY tile that touches water. Same goes for CFC. Our top build priority should be boats.

Techs

I disagree with the bee-line to Magnetism. Frigates are quite poor (2a 2d), so why build them? Galleons... meh. Nothing special.

Frigates are not a good investment. They're expensive and weak. 2 attack? Seriously now, that's pathetic. 2 Galleys cost the same as 1 Frigate and together have the same attack. Plus they can carry units.

Invasions aren't stopped by sinking the enemy's fleet. There is simply too much water and the boats move too slowly. Where would we station these 3-6 Frigates? Would we spread them out? Could they even reach the GWT fleet in time? Would we even have enough pickets to be able to SEE them coming? All GWT needs is one extra 3/3 Galley and every Frigate we build is useless.

Caravels will make the best pickets, with 2 defense and the ability to upgrade to something USEFUL later on.

To be honest, what we need most right now is Military Tradition. That is the tech that helps us in the most tangible way. Cavalry give us a distinct advantage over GWT whether on offense, defense or simply as a unit wall. Being able to move 9 tiles on roads instead of 6 is a major difference. Just ask GWT. They have their FP intact because of the difference.

Yes, it's out of the way when we're talking getting Steam Power, but it's only a couple techs away right now. With CFC gold we can probably get to 4-turn techs and maintain that for a bit.

Let me rephrase that: someone should send a message asking CFC if they can help fund our research for the rest of the Medieval Age.

	20-09-2004 00:17									#45
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Also, if we do disconnect the Iron, what do you think of just building a shite load of Warrior's! A lot of cities could put out one per turn. They can block a tile just as well as any other unit. I know they don't upgrade but to Guerilla (6-6-1)...

Just block all the tiles with cheap units, Cav's don't upgrade into the IA either. Blocking all the tiles would give exactly the same outcome as a large millitary build up but would cost alot less economically.

Even if we did have a large millitary fighting off GWT would still be very ugly and very dangerous. If GWT were to take all CFC lands the dual chokepoints would mean we'd need twice the millitary to be safe.

	20-09-2004 01:18									#46
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The unit support costs for Warriors would be immense. We have well over 100 more tiles to cover. The strain of -100 GPT would cripple us.

Expensive in shields or not, Cavalry move 9 tiles on roads. This means they are 3x as valuable for blocking coasts and of course infinitely more valuable for actual combat.

	20-09-2004 01:41									#47
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You can't it have every way. We could use Warriors to block landings on hills, mountains and other high defense tiles..leaving open grassland and plains tiles for them to land on (if need be). We will have MT before GWT lands here. If they land within 20 turns we can have a few diffent groups of Calvary to attack. Plus what ever CFC has as well. If we can get GWT to land on these types of tiles we can really decimate them.

I think it's closer to 40 turns before we will see GWT attempt to land. By that time we will have SteamPower and some RR's available; making the manueverability and response time for our Cav's so much better. By 50 turns past I believe we will be able (with a RoP with CFC) reach any tile on our Continent with our Cav's.

	20-09-2004 04:09									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Trip The unit support costs for Warriors would be immense. We have well over 100 more tiles to cover. The strain of -100 GPT would cripple us.

I don't really think it would or at least I think we'd be better off economically to block the tiles than to go for the serious millitary build up.
We wouldn't even have to research MT.

You are right that there are about 100 more tiles to cover but that would be with us covering every coastal tile on the whole continent, CFC will surely do their bit and in the short term we don't even have to block every single tile, the boats we currently have should provide enough warning to block any tile GWT get near.

	20-09-2004 05:37									#49
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-100 GPT is 1/3 of our current economy. That is a massive waste, MT or no MT. 100 tiles is only our side of the continent facing GWT. That doesn't count CFC and about 60 more tiles.

Here's what we should do: Construct a force of 50 Cavalry total. The overall cost (certainly in gold and maybe in shields with enough upgrading) will be less than a mass of obsolete units. Build many more boats to see them coming. 50 Cavalry (aka 18 new fastmovers) will do LOADS more for us than 100 Warriors will. Keep 25 in each core and have CFC build up their own. And did I mention lots of boats?

That will keep us safe. 100 Warriors may keep us safe but it will cripple our long-term potential. In case you didn't see what I posted above, +100 Warriors = +100 support costs = -1/3 of our economy.

	20-09-2004 07:46									#50
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What he's saying Trip is that if we build up the Economy we can offset that upkeep cost. If we put all the shields into improvements versus Cavalry then we would be able to more than make up for the difference bewtween the gpt costs. The more Markets, Libraries, Banks, and Universities we build, the more units we can support while still sustaining 4 turn research.

I am in favor of a little of each. Let's say 30 Warriors and 40 Cavalry for now as an immediate goal. We also need to open an Embassy with CFC so we can get a RoP. We should have them pay for it of course.

We station the Warrior's on tiles without roads and in the most defensible terrain first. We also need to protect CGN. That next era tech will be key to helping us keep the edge over GWT. Even Nationalism would help a bit. Being able to mobilize for war is huge in any game; it is a strategy that is not often used. It's almost like a second GA!

I'm also in favor of CFC trying to make a small incursion/landing in the deep South of GCA in order to get their GA started. Once landed and a GA started then they get the hell out of Dodge and get those Rider's back home. I think a GA would help CFC to get more members involved and give them a sense of purpose; it might actually get them to work at this game. CFC will need a GA in order to properly prepare for a GWT landing in say 30 turns.

	20-09-2004 12:21									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Trip -100 GPT is 1/3 of our current economy. That is a massive waste, MT or no MT. 100 tiles is only our side of the continent facing GWT. That doesn't count CFC and about 60 more tiles. Here's what we should do: Construct a force of 50 Cavalry total. The overall cost (certainly in gold and maybe in shields with enough upgrading) will be less than a mass of obsolete units. Build many more boats to see them coming. 50 Cavalry (aka 18 new fastmovers) will do LOADS more for us than 100 Warriors will. Keep 25 in each core and have CFC build up their own. And did I mention lots of boats? That will keep us safe. 100 Warriors may keep us safe but it will cripple our long-term potential. In case you didn't see what I posted above, +100 Warriors = +100 support costs = -1/3 of our economy.

C'mon on now Trip...

we already have 80 millitary units why would we need to build 100 more warriors? The 18 new horses and "loads of boats" you mention will mean more than 100 gpt up keep.

	20-09-2004 20:29									#52
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I mean 100 GPT of NEW upkeep costs. Yes, our total will go over 100 with the new stuff, but it's not PLUS 100 (aka 200+ GPT upkeep).

	20-09-2004 21:58									#53
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Well there's only ~175 coastal tiles on the whole continent

With CFC doing some of the blocking, at a guess I'd say it'd be around 50 warriors, 20 more units to block our side then 30 to help out CFC with CFC then gradually taking over all blockage for their side.

	20-09-2004 22:44									#54
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About 180, but yeah, close enough.

Right now we only have 81 units capable of blocking tiles, assuming everyone makes it home safely.

I would bet CFC has another 20, maybe 25. That's 105 units, meaning we need another 75. CFC's economy absolutely blows, so we don't really want them burning themselves out on building even MORE units when they should be catching up with Markets and Workers and filling up the rest of their land. That means most of those 75 units we would have to build.

I still think 20 new Cavalry would do the job just as well without causing such a drain on our economy. That's an extra 55 GPT we could save, and while upgrade costs will be expensive, they won't end up being 55 GPT.

Keep in mind we can continue using those Cavalry for coast blocking until GWT gets Marines. So they don't go obsolete as soon as, say, GWT gets Riflemen. Warriors are completely useless and will be draining our economy until GWT gets Marines. -55 GPT for that long is far, far too expensive. Upgrading 20 new Cav is easily more economical.

	21-09-2004 02:26									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Trip I would bet CFC has another 20, maybe 25. That's 105 units, meaning we need another 75. CFC's economy absolutely blows, so we don't really want them burning themselves out on building even MORE units when they should be catching up with Markets and Workers and filling up the rest of their land. That means most of those 75 units we would have to build. I still think 20 new Cavalry would do the job just as well without causing such a drain on our economy. That's an extra 55 GPT we could save, and while upgrade costs will be expensive, they won't end up being 55 GPT.

That's a fair point, although I'd still like to see some other peoples take on the issue, specifically regarding economics and effectiveness.

	21-09-2004 02:31									#56
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My main point is that Cav are good as blockers until Marines come along. We have to have a protective net up until that point and the continual drain will be much less if we have a smaller but more modern and mobile Cav force than if we simply have a massive horde of Warriors. Whatever we build will still be around when we're building Tanks, and Cav could still be used to protect our shores even after GWT gets Marines, though not as effectively, they COULD be good for something else.

	23-09-2004 02:36									#57
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The main things that worry me are (in this order):

1. CFC's competance or lack thereof. Will they be able to protect themselves, and therefore us, from invasion?

2. Our naval sentry net. Unless we intend to block the entire coast, we desperately need one. This will require a fair number of ships - beyond what we currently have available, yes?

-Arrian

	23-09-2004 09:33									#58
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Agree completely, those have been my points here and elsewhere.

We need boats. And we need to whip CFC into shape. We also need Cavalry, but I think I've argued enough for that here already.