13-09-2004 16:02									#1
	MoI thoughts and help - a very very rough guide Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Since the old MoI thread is too old to be of any use (last updated in March), and there is currently SOME idea of what to do with our military but none that I know of about Domestic affairs, I thought I'd look in to the save and see if I could cobble together some ideas to consider for the next save. None of this is done with a helluva lot of thought, nor are the gorgeous and well-laid out shots from E_T's days, but I will post a screenie of the immediate area of the cities I am talking about. If you want more, go open the save yourself - it ain't hard to do.

So, first to the southernmost cities we have:

Down Under builds a Courthouse when we next get the turn (790AD IIRC). It is size 5, and will be four turns from size 6. I think we need an Aqueduct here to promote growth beyond 6, else the CH will be a waste. It has lots of sea tiles to work, and the potential for one more mountain when cultural radii expand in the area. I think this city should be working the sea tiles whenever it grows further, for the extra trade, leaving the Mountain until last, or it will not grow any more. At present however the sea tiles will slow its growth (only one fpt). Thus I think next we need a Harbour there, then the Aqueduct. Short-rushing could be useful, but not really needed for some time.

Zenophobia is at +5fpt and +5spt, so it is a worker pump. That is exactly as it should stay. Nice 'n' easy.

Ski Road is about to grow to size 6, and is some 20 turns away from an Aqueduct. It already has a CH, so we should try to get this to a good pop as well. The Aqueduct seems good value to me, although we may wish to increase shields at the expense of food for a time when it grows next turn, so we don't end up waiting for ages for the Aqueduct to finish. I see the workers are mining the mountain - this is good.

Solace will have an Aqueduct next turn, just in time for growth to pop 7. At this pop it will have 3 unhappies, and 3 happies with the lux we have. As we may be wanting to promote growth here, perhaps a Temple would be the best thing next, and a Harbour, again for the growth and trade.

Power of Victory is about done with its Aqueduct soon before growth to 7 as well, and has a Harbour in the queue. There are four more land tiles to work that only this city can reach, so we could forego the Harbour if we wanted something else here first. A Temple perhaps? Your thoughts are needed here.

Apolyton Prime is in fine shape at pop 11, with a Market. A Library is done next turn, with growth (and UNHAPPINESS) on another 4 or so turns. This is just enough time to get a Temple in, so I think we should do this next. Then no more happiness improvements will be needed barring countering WW, so we can dedicate it to a Wonder or Units.

Arcadia at size 7, is growing slowly and building slowly. It is building a Marketplace, which seems justified despite the time involved, as it has bags of trade. There is not much to do here for a while, except maybe bringing in some workers to irrigate the one bonus grass and mine the one irrigated normal grass for best GA usage.

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Last edited by MrWhereItsAt on 13-09-2004 at 16:09

	13-09-2004 16:13									#2
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Ok, thoughts and feelings on this (as well as any already-laid plans eg on Wonders for Apolyton Prime) are welcome. I will do some more of this tomorrow night.

	15-09-2004 02:17									#3
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Here are my thoughts WIA...

Apolyton Prime: I think we decided on Copernicus in AP next. I set a Colliseum as a prebuild for now; it will have to be changed in the next two turns to Copernicus. After Cop, then a Library is the smart move.

Arcadia: It has been designated as a worker pump...only I forgot to set it to build workers! Hopefully, at the beginning of next turn, we can enter the city screen and make the change to a workers before the shields are applied to the Market. If not, change the build to a Catapult. Then when it's finnished the turn after (10 spt) we switch to building workers.

Power of Victory: I think the Harbor next is good, followed by a Market then a Temple and then a University.

Solace: Why don't we build a Market next so that we can multiply the hapiness there. that way the growth wont have to be stunted. With a Library and Temple to follow.

DownUnder: I concur.

SkiRoad: I concur

Zenophobia: I concur

Lets have OPD take a peek and give his input as well.

	15-09-2004 02:43									#4
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I dunno if people are willing to go this far, but...

DeepO did something with the Gathering Storm's empire that proved somewhat useful. He made a map of the forest chops that had been done. Then he assembled worker teams and plant/chopped to assist builds until pretty much every tile that could be forested had been used in that fashion. It's a little extreme, I know, but I figure I'll throw it out there for ya.

Second, something that I use in SP games now... planting forest on normal grassland to maximize shield output at size12. It only applies to cities that are at size12 and still have a food surplus, even with every tile mined. These are rare... but it happens. Coastal cities, for instance, often have that, and are in dire need of increased shield output.

-Arrian

	15-09-2004 04:21									#5
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Apolyton Prime cool

Arcadia cool

PoV
Like WIA says has some land tiles it can use before it needs a harbor, a lack of a harbor is not limiting size but a lack of a market is. It would probably be able to reach size 12 w/o a harbor but won't be bigger than 7 w/o the market first.
I'd say go market then harbor. Temples are not really that critical ATM.

Solace
Again needs a market to grow over 7 which will probably be in about 12 turns. However a harbor is quite important here. Market than Harbor sounds good.

Down Under
Is quite annoying, it needs an aqua, harbor and market before it can get anywhere and it doesn't produce that many sheilds anyway. As WIA says it needs harbor most as that's what limits the growth first. It may be worthwhile to mine some of the irrigated GL tiles and not have it grow while stuff in built there.

Silk Road
Cool, that mountain is mined and ready to use next turn.

	15-09-2004 04:25									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian I dunno if people are willing to go this far, but... DeepO did something with the Gathering Storm's empire that proved somewhat useful. He made a map of the forest chops that had been done. Then he assembled worker teams and plant/chopped to assist builds until pretty much every tile that could be forested had been used in that fashion. It's a little extreme, I know, but I figure I'll throw it out there for ya. Second, something that I use in SP games now... planting forest on normal grassland to maximize shield output at size12. It only applies to cities that are at size12 and still have a food surplus, even with every tile mined. These are rare... but it happens. Coastal cities, for instance, often have that, and are in dire need of increased shield output. -Arrian

Ah yes, the way things are likely to work out is we will most likely have an absolute load of workers lying around with nothing to do while waiting for RR to be discovered. This could be a good use for them at that point.

	15-09-2004 04:41									#7
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Yes, this sounds like a great interim use for idle workers! First we need to finish off the bits we're doing, and irrigate bonus grass/mine non-bonus-grass to get the most from the GA, then once that is over we can assemble gangs of however many it takes to plant a forest and clear it in a turn, and set to work. With much of our lands felled from JUNGLE, we should have a lot of chops to play with.

I'll get an early save at some point and have a poke around with it.

	15-09-2004 17:03									#8
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Re: Solace and Power of Victory I agree that a Market is fine, but BF - why do we need a Harbour in PoV first? We will want a Market as soon as possible, so that means shields. Shortly we have enough shields there for a 10-turn Market and a Harbour will either be unused and wasting 1gpt for some time or if we want to work coastal tiles it will be slowing the Market (fewer shields). I think going straight to a Market is the best idea, and once we have done that we will still be nowhere near having used up all the shielded land tiles. I'd say a Harbour was a ways down the prority list for this city, and a Market straight after the Aqueduct is best for happiness, extra trade and so as to not waste gold on upkeep for a useless improvement.

Looks like otherwise we three are in agreement. Copernicus in AP - I KNEW there was a Wonder budgeted for it, and a GOOD one.

And shortly, the second exciting instalment of what we can do with our cities....

Stay tuned - same Where Channel, same Where Time. And if that bizarre sentence confused you, you're not the only one....

	15-09-2004 18:22									#9
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First up today we have the small city NE of Apolyton Prime,

Area X
This city is at pop 5, and grows to 6 in another 9 turns. It is 11 turns from an Aqueduct, and already has a Harbour, which is good as there is only one more land tile available to it, a forest. I think the forest should be left alone until such a time as we have enough workers with nothing else to do to clear and reforest it (can you do that?). After the Aqueduct, oh, I don't know... a Market?

Lakeview
on the shores of the vast internal sea, this small hamlet is building an Aqueduct, something it has no need for right now (pop 2), but it will not manage to finish (without rushing) until it reaches pop 5, so this is perhaps a good thing to work on, and there is little else worth it at present.

Freedom City
is also small (pop 2), but has a disproportionate amount of shields. I have no idea what BF changed it to last, but a unit would be suitable, or the omnipresent Aqueduct, which would however be finished some 20 turns or more before it was needed. Suggestions?

Heroe's Summit
Working on a CH at the moment, it doesn't yet need it (pop 4 next turn we get), but could start to benefit soon from it, with shields at least. Else we could go for a Harbour if we wanted to dedicate the town to more gold. Stay with the CH then go to an Aqueduct?

Thunder Bay
is getting near the useful limit for shields without a CH. Fortunately it is building one. If someone can find E_T's thread detailing how much corruption can be reduced here with a CH, that would be useful in figuring out whether it would be worth it here. I suspect it will be useful in making this small town useful for cheap military units.

Eisten Boulen
is also with a CH, which it will manage in another 8 turns, shortly after growing to size 4. If we keep with the CH and keep working the irrigated plains, we can switch to a 100 shield improvement like an Aqueduct or Market JUST before the foodbox fills after having reached size 6. After then we need a Harbour if we want it to keep growing, or else start working the numerous mined hills nearby. I think this sounds like the way to go.

Lumen Musae
Again a CH. This will be done in 7 turns, and then a Harbour will be needed as at size 4 (3 turns away) there will be no available +2 food tiles left. There is a jungle on land not in our cultural radius, and we should build something like a Temple in ONE of the surrounding cities to take the last few tiles.

Elucidum Novum
This city is at pop 5, +5fpt and +4spt. Just about ready to be a worker pump, I think we should make it so. To do this we need one more +2fpt +1spt tile - there is an unmined grass perfect for this immediately S of Dominus. We should keep building workers here until we can mine that tile, and then get this city to a size 6 2 turn worker pump using all the tiles it has now and that extra grass.

Antlergrad
is on a river, and thus a good city to push towards a Marketplace. It's pop 5, and will need an Aqueduct for further growth once the (you guessed it) CH is done.

That's it for the night. There are a LOT of CHs being built here, but then this is an area midway between the FP and Palace, and thus the best place for CHs. In general, seeing as we can reach size 7 under normal circumstances without any lux rate, and size 9 with only a Market, we should really promote growth to this size in most cities. Also, should we get Bach's (which we SHOULD), we will be able to manage it to size 11 without a lux rate, and only a Temple takes us to the max size. Our greatest advantage, I feel, is in how we will be able to get size 12 cities without a lux rate and with minimal improvements. With E_T and Dominae's legacy of extremely well-placed cities, Palace and FP, we could clean up after this.

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	15-09-2004 21:54									#10
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This is good idea wia, a nice way to get a feel for all the cities in the empire. Also if possible I'd be good to start earmarking specific cities for worker adds up to size 12 in the not too distant future. Any city with Aqua and market and enough tiles can do so.

	15-09-2004 22:09									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MrWhereItsAt In general, seeing as we can reach size 7 under normal circumstances without any lux rate, and size 9 with only a Market, we should really promote growth to this size in most cities. Also, should we get Bach's (which we SHOULD), we will be able to manage it to size 11 without a lux rate, and only a Temple takes us to the max size. Our greatest advantage, I feel, is in how we will be able to get size 12 cities without a lux rate and with minimal improvements. With E_T and Dominae's legacy of extremely well-placed cities, Palace and FP, we could clean up after this.

I think we need to go for 10% lux. That and a market should be good to have most cities at size 12. Although bachs and temple would be alot more economically sound (10% lux will likely cost us about 100gpt eventually) I don't think it's too practical. A temple in each city is going to be around 2000 sheilds empire wide and won't be a long term solution as it will only be viable while we have bachs and before HG runs out at steam power, which is probaly going to be a window of about 10 - 15 turns at a rough guess. Once we get Steam we'll need to runs lux, and doing so would make the temples irrelevant.

2 solutions to this could be to build colloseums instead of temples or to keep all cities at 11 after we get Steam power, although I don't like the sound of either of them.

	15-09-2004 22:30									#12
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No, build the temples, in the first and second ring, so that we can build Cathedrals. That is an extra 4 content faces in total, alot of gold and shields that we will need to beat GWT.

	16-09-2004 00:27									#13
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Well ok, we don't have to decide now. We can decide what to do in the future when we have a better picture of things and priorities. If bachs + temples is the way we want to go then it may be an idea to have AP build Bachs rather than Coperns so that we can set it up sooner? So perhaps we should look at things a little while before AP would finish Coperns?

In the meantime I think we should start using 10% lux at some point in the next 10 turns so as to allow core cities to be worker added up to size 12. At least enough cities so that there is an overall gain in commerce despite the lux increase and all on the same turn.
Does this sound ok?

	16-09-2004 00:33									#14
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Cathedrals are too expensive and a waste of shields.

I agree wholeheartedly with the move to use the lux slider to boost our population.

E_T wanted to chain us down by never using the lux slider, which will ultimately limit all of our cities size and possible Worker adds. That is something I would not want to see come back. Build a crapload of Workers, turn up the lux slider, then add them everywhere like mad.

	16-09-2004 01:14									#15
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Temples + Markets + 10% lux will probably do nicely. In SP, I like my cathedrals (especially since I've typically got the Sistine), but here they prolly are too expensive to contemplate.

Lux slider is fine... but only when it actually makes economic sense to turn it on. As in we have the workers in position to add pretty much right away. That's not the case yet, is it? We still have some terrain improvement to do, and the worker pumps aren't online just yet.

Question: do we feel the NEED for Copernicus? If so... why? Is that wonder really worth 400 shields of output from AP?

-Arrian

	16-09-2004 01:18									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Arrian Question: do we feel the NEED for Copernicus? If so... why? Is that wonder really worth 400 shields of output from AP? -Arrian

Not only does it give us a research boost, it prevents GWT from getting it. Not only do we want to maintain our tech lead we want to stretch it out a bit. I think it's well worth it.

	16-09-2004 01:19									#17
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Yes, Copes is definately worth it. if GWT build Copes in Parth, what do you think would happen to our tech lead? That one wonder could very well spell end game for us, and that reason is why we also need to shoot for Newtons.

Edit: Crosspost...

	16-09-2004 01:28									#18
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Hmm, ok I guess. Just raising a doubt. Carry on, then.

-Arrian

	16-09-2004 01:53									#19
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Although I have not looked at them closely yet, I believed that there were/are other cities, perhaps like Tripoli and Mingapulco, that could do wonders in a fair time, and one of these can do a Palace pre-build too. I'd think we could do Copes and one or two other wonders, especially if we're hoping for our GA.

OK, temples everywhere may not be perfect, but they would certainly be worth it in a number of cities. I DID forget about the HG's effects running out in the not-too-distant future, and I think a low lux rate does sound acceptable.

Keep in mind many cities, particularly some of those already mentioned by me above don't have 12 tiles worth of land available, as we packed them in. We will be able to turn a number of new citizens into scientists/taxmen, who don't use those happiness icons. If need be we can always put in an entertainer or two, which is less wasteful than cranking up the lux rate further. It will only hopefully be a few cities that need to consider Collossea or Cathedrals.

	16-09-2004 02:16									#20
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Krill was talking to me about our future research goals and the general timeline of it.

With the current builds we have going now and expecting some more gold from CFC for research...I expect us to be able to have Scientific Method in 34 turns; it could be sooner depending on how much gold we get from CFC.

I'd like to plan a prebuild for ToE and Hoover's now. I just know GWT will be gunning for it as well. Let's beat them to it by a landslide!

Which cities are best suited for these prebuilds? Ideally we'd have ToE built on one turn with Hoover's on the following turn.

	16-09-2004 03:33									#21
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Wow 34 turns!!! that would be great if we could pull that off.

Some kind of time frame for research would be very useful

With a GA in about 27 turns ming, banana and tripoli would probably overshoot the 600 sheilds but dominus and chiquita may be nicely in time to do them. BFC or Solace may also be in with a look.

Getting the pre-builds sorted should be no problem once we know more or less when we get the tech, the GA and RR's means we can likely build them in any number of cities.

Edit - prebuilds are likely to be a problem though, palace for ToE then most likely Oracle as the closest to Hoover perhaps meaning Hoover to be 15 ish turns after ToE. Unless we want to use one of the 600 sheild wonders as a prebuild for ToE but that would be risky. A delay untill Hoover isn't really that bad though as GWT probably won't be able to make up the difference and it'll take a while for the factories to be built to get the effect.

Hoover's due to the river requirement is probably only feesable in AP, Banana, Chiquita or Dominus.

Last edited by OPD on 16-09-2004 at 03:49

	16-09-2004 04:31									#22
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We need to start building up our military again as well. Regardless of whether we land or not, GWT will come eventually. We can't build wonders and Markets and Temples forever guys...

	16-09-2004 05:08									#23
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Yes, we know Trip. :/

OPD: It's not that a delay until Hoover would prevent us from getting it, but every turn that we have with it is that much more of a bonus for us.

	16-09-2004 08:56									#24
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quote: Originally posted by BigFree Yes, we know Trip. :/

Which is why there's no discussion on the issue...

	16-09-2004 09:07									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Which is why there's no discussion on the issue...

I disagree. I think there has not been any discussion up tothis point in this thread because we are looking at city improvments as it pertains to city growth and our economy. Build for Military units will undoubedly come out of Cities that have a Barracks. Now, a city with a barracks might build other items as well but it will generally be mostly for the military. That is just something that goes without saying.

	16-09-2004 20:32									#26
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Maybe I'm mistaken, but this thread appears to be entitled "MoI Thoughts and Help" and the building of units is definitely a MoI task.

GWT already has Education. Assume 5 turns to Astronomy. Assume 5 more turns to Navigation. 10 turns and GWT can invade us.

Does that spark any new discussion?

This team can't collectively stick its head in the sand. GWT has many boats and appears to be building more. The last tech they finished is Education. They'll soon no longer be strapped by CGN's WW and once that happens they can research faster than us. The moment they get Navigation is the moment we're no longer safe. All we have is some MIs and NMs blocking the coast. We don't have anyone watching and we don't have 9 move Ansar like GWT. In fact, we have 0 Knights at home right now. And GWT can land in 10 turns.

Am I the only one who sees the problem?

	16-09-2004 21:34									#27
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You were one to say that we should definatley try to find a LZ, were you not? I know you were not the only one, but still, you were one.

It's closer to 15 turns that they could land, including travel time.

In 4 turn we try to land; if we don't find a spot we have two things going for us:

1. GWT will assume we are still scouting out a possible LZ and will not be able to send many troops away because they need them there for two reasons:

a. To block landings.
b. To kill/defend against our landing.

2. We can sens the majority of our ships back home if we don't find a spot. We keep 2 out there for scouting/mapping purposes and to keep GWT thinking we have a fleet hidden out there.


To this end I say we make sure they "see" our whole Northern fleet when the 4 turn LZ try comes up. That way we cause that much more fear of a future landing. They will be paranoid, rightly so, of a landing. They will have to dedicate a certain amount of troops to deal with that; lessening th amount of troops they could possibly send on an offensive against us.

What's more likely is that GWT will send a small force against CFC especially if CFC goes "weak" to GCA which may happen if CFC loses all it's troops relatively quickly in their landing against GCA.

We are currently now still building military units; more still to come, I promise.

	16-09-2004 22:06									#28
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And I explained why I thought we needed to land - in order to distract them. That will not deter them forever. They were still building units not too long ago, and I'm assuming most of those GWT Galleys were new.

GWT can basically block us with their slowmovers OR with their Ansar... leaving the other one to land against either CFC or us. Even GWT's slowmover force would be more than enough to take down CFC.

Yes, our operations will probably delay them (quite a bit if our plan is successful), but they will come and I do think that they'll come "sooner" rather than "later." And even if they don't, wouldn't you rather be wrong than me?

My underlying point is that I've seen basically *no* discussion on military units. So far it's all been Worker Pumps and Markets and Copernicus and Bach's.

We got no fastmovers at home. Assume the worst... we lose our entire force over against GWT. What then? We have 0 fastmovers, 0 Muskets and a crapload of obsolete slowmovers.

This is more of an important issue than I think most people recognize.

	16-09-2004 23:34									#29
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Well, start talking then!


Have I discouraged talk of military builds?


Have I explained why we have talked about what we have talked about?


We have plans to mine a hill 3-2 of Eye yet even though you do not see discussion about it, it will be done.


Everyone: Ok, I made up the thing about the hill 3-2 of Eye, I have no idea if suh a place exists, but don't tell Trip, I was just making a point....


Go ahead with your "Military Units" discussion. No one is going to jump down your throat because of it. But, please, say more than "Why aren't we discussing Military units?". Give us some plans, some numbers, something! If you don't like the current builds suggest some for us.

Thanks.

	17-09-2004 03:51									#30
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Well, sorry, but I have class and work until 10pm, I have more important things to do with my time. There's a reason why I didn't run for consul. I no longer have the opportunity to write big long plans for this team any more.

That having been said, I do still care what happens. While I may not be able to do the things myself but I do think that these things are important enough to be brought up to everyone else's attention.

To summarize, not to be harsh, but it's not my job to plan these sorts of things out. I don't even have to point them out if people don't want me to. I just think that doing so helps out the people who spend more time than me now on this game.