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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:23
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Okay true, so that might make two countries, well five if you throw in the Baltic states. Compare that to Germany: Poland, Denmark, Norway, Belguim, Netherlands, Luxemburg, France, Yugoslavia, Greece, Russia, and war against Britain and the US.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:23
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I said that the Soviets invaded the Baltic so that would be five nations attacked by them, not the Germans.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:23
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No prob. I wasn't exactly clear.
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GePap
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of the Big Apple
Nov 2001
time: 23:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
Tingkai, I urge you to read that link provide to me by Shawn. Not only did Stalin kill the enemy in war, he slaughted his own people by the tens of millions for both political and ethnic cleansing purposes. Of course, Hitler was guilty of the same ethnic cleansing, but even he did not approach the scale of Stalin, who was the greatest mass murderer of WWII. |
As Tingkai stated, this was due to lack of opportunity, not will. The Germans were planning to starve most of the population in Western Russia, the Ukraine and Belarussia - that would have meant the death of 50 million or more, simply to make way.
Yes, Stalin killed the most people-but Hitler would have been far worse if he could.
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Heresson
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of frogs
Jun 2000
time: 06:23
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Of course they started,
Silesians, Kashubs and gorale were told they are German, so they needn't have been moved.
At least some of them. I know that dislocations took place there too.
Rather by a chance, because there's not much talking about it, and only when the Germans started demanding compensations for post-war relocations it was pointed out to them that they were doing that during the war. In fact, Erika Steinbach, the leader of German organisation of displaced from East, is a dotter of German officer who lived during the war in a house of displaced Poles.
She admitted it, in fact.
Parts of Poland that were incorporated directly to the Reich were supposed to be eventually cleared of Poles in the first turn.
I do not know much. I know that in various regions Poles had 15 minutes to pack and make room for German settlers (like Germans from Latvia).
I've heard about Zamosc region, because it was one of bigger actions.
This region had very good soil, so it was chosen to be the first one to be completely cleared out of Poles. There was heavy partisant activity, though, and German settlers were being under attack by peasants who escaped to the forests, so the action was not quite successful in the end.
However, even where Poles weren't systhematically murdered, the treatement was not quite according to any treaty I guess.
In a village next to my grandpa's, and where some my family has lived, a German soldier was found dead.
In return, Germans shot something like 143 guys - entire male population of the village.
And it is quite a common thing they did.
The actions were targetter rather against specific parts of population - politicians, people with higher education, clergy.
Also, they took 2,3 mln people for compulsory works.
300 000 Polish blond and blue-eyed children were "confiscated" as one may say, and given to German families - only 60 000 returned to Poland after the war.
I want our blond cuties back! 
I think the number of people transfered from territories annected by Reich to General Gubern was 1mln or more, but I'd have to check that
Soviets deported over 1mln Poles, incl. my grandma, too.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
This could help explain why the Serbs went on an ethnic cleansing campaign in the '90s. They had never been told that such actions were uncivilized because they were Communists and that is what Communists routinely did to peoples who were in the way. |
Ned, Yugoslavia was a peaceful country during its communist period. There was no "ethnic cleansing" until after the communist government fell.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:23
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Come off it Ned. Stalin was a murderous bastard but he never engage in genocide like Hitler.
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vodkakov
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In the student union bar!
Aug 2004
time: 05:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Ned
When the Iron Curtain descended across Europe, apparently only the Western, non Communist, part got its nose rubbed into what the Nazi's did. This could help explain why the Serbs went on an ethnic cleansing campaign in the '90s. They had never been told that such actions were uncivilized because they were Communists and that is what Communists routinely did to peoples who were in the way. |
Apparently, I seem to remember reading as part of my history A Level that one of the major reasons that East Germans were not so well informed was the Soviet desire to utilise the Germans as allies in the Warsaw Pact (although they did force the DDR to pay reparations). The West did a similar thing, which has since led to the rise of the idea that Hitler and just a select few were responsible and that the majority of Germans hated the Nazis. Recent historical analysis shows that large numbers of Germans supported Nazi policy (mostly with regard to economics and anti-communist policy). Being realistic this makes sense given that 6,000,000 Germans were unemployed in 1933 and the Nazis provided work, improved conditions etc. Basically, unless you were classed as a enemy of the regime, life was an improvement on the period 1929-1933. The idea that Hitler and the Nazis were responsible for everything, it could be argued, has been brought about by the need to re-integrate the vast majority of Germans into their respective capitalist or communist societies and basically to use them as allies in the Cold War.
The Balkan situation has always been very volatile, just look at the pre-WW1 era. The modern conflict was a mixture of emerging (Serb) nationalism and the fear of Milosovic's that he would lose control of vast areas with the break-up of Yugoslavia, in my opinion. Also I think it is unfair to say that just communists commit crimes, such as ethnic cleansing, as Rwanda was not communist. Differences between people result in ethnic conflict, especially when people require a scapegoat for their troubles (just look at the traditional ethos of anti-semites - that Jews are somehow controlling the world and therefore the problems of the world are the fault of the Jews - which I'm sure most people would accept is total ****). Communists did kill people, so have most types of government at one time or another, including the USA (Native Americans). I agree though that the years of authoritarian rule in Yugoslavia was probably a large contributor towards the eventual genocide(s) that occurred there.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:23
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From what I've read, the East Germans were taught about the atrocities committed by the Nazis, but the Nazis were protrayed as capitlists.
Immediately after the war, a myth developed in East and West Germany that the Allies had liberated them from the Nazis. That changed in West Germany during the 1960s when the twenty-somethings began questioning what their parents had done during the war.
As for Yugoslavia, the communists tried to put the past behind the, eg the crimes committed by the pro-German Croats and the anti-German Serbs during the war and earlier battles between Christian and Muslims.
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vodkakov
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In the student union bar!
Aug 2004
time: 05:23
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I can see the sense in the Soviet teachings in East Germany regarding Nazism. A lot of left-leaning historians thought that Nazism came about as a result of capitalist businessmen. However, recently, it has become apparent that large numbers of the working class also voted NSDAP (logic being that they were promised work and improved conditions). Big business only started to fund the NSDAP after it became apparent that they might form a government (logic being that by 'funding' the party, contracts might emerge later, and with the government being the biggest contractor, the logic speaks for itself).
The myth that the Germans were liberated is key to the development of the belief that the Germans in the majority did not support Hitler et al, largely, I believe to make it more acceptable to re-arm Germany and integrate them into the Warsaw Pact/NATO. If the Germans were not liberated, then they supported Hitler and the Nazis, if this were the case then integration would have been unpopular... therefore it was necessary to perpetuate the belief.
My point about the communists in Yugoslavia is that the authoritarian nature of Tito's regime produced the sort of mentality, which is common in many such states, whereby human rights and "Western" (for want of a better term) values are new concepts. This made it, in my opinion, possible that the atrocities occurred,fired by nationalists. I could not agree more that Tito managed to produce the only time in Yugoslavia's history, whereby the area was relatively stable and the people were not massacring one another for the longest period of time.
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01-10-2004 23:22
) have read about, but don't have the genuine - this is what WE lived through - perspective. Thanks for joining in.
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