14-09-2004 19:19									#1
	Someone needs to be taught a lesson Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Ok I was trying to make a deal with the Mayans over their Dyes and I offered them Incense, Ivory, Silks and Gems. That's 4 luxury resources vs 1!! And then that!?!?!!!!

What he wanted for his Dyes are 2 of my luxuries and Steam Power. For just one of his - ridiculous.

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	14-09-2004 19:21									#2
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btw compare our sizes, I am the pink one, he is the blue one (surrounded by the red line - it got a bit trashed after the compression)

	14-09-2004 19:34									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

With that difference in size, it's obvious why he wants so much more. In certain limits, depending on attitude, Civ3 trades are mostly fair. If he finds the proposed deal insulting, this means, that one of his luxuries makes more of your people content/happy, than four of yours make his people. Adding a tech is mostly a good idea, or buy his luxury for gpt and then drain the gold out by selling techs.

	14-09-2004 19:37									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Of course you also could chime in a dead end tech like fascism, as this doesn't give him any progress. But be sure to trade the tech around in the same turn for as many as you can get, or he will.

On a sidenote, I see the industrial Mayan leader for the first time.

	14-09-2004 20:53									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I like to offer somethong like medicine, if they have no chance to get ahead of me to the ToE.

Like Sir Ralph said a tech like Facism is good as they like it and it does not lead to anything else.

The fact is they know you need the luxs more than they canuse the 4 you offer. If they do not have large cities and markets, they do not gain that much.

Of course you can just take it. You need to crush them at some point anyway.

	14-09-2004 22:27									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

thx for the input
But I really don't need his Dyes at this point anyway. I thought it was funny for this little ***** to use quite some words. You are right about the tech, though I didn't want to supply him with any, because he probably just trades it to the Cartagians.
And my feelings were right, because the brown ones (Cartagians) have declared war against me. Not that they'd really have a chance in the long run, but in the short they can get very nasty.
Since I have no better offensive unit than infantry (24/24/1) this will be taking a bit longer. Cavalry is only 16/10/3 and Rifleman 16/16/1. You'd think that from the number infantry owns them, but I am quite sure his cavalries will take them down one by one.
Tanks are still too far away

So I used my diplomatic skills and talked the Chinese into a military alliance against the Cartagians, a mutual protection pact and a rights of passage agreement.
I think they remembered how we cooperatively went against the Japanese, who after a long lasting and casaulty heavy war, finally got reduced to their colonies. The Cartagians should remember as well since they got a lot of cities from the japanese too, but they have decided to betray me. In a way that was clever, because I would have to go after them next anyway. So they caught me unprepared.

Because the Chinese have proven quite helpful and loyal in the past I think I'll let them stay alive, even if that would mean I couldn't win other than by points (I think I have disabled domination victory). On my difficulty setting one can still speak like that (monarch)

Overall this is quite an interesting game. One in which I tried to stay friend with the AI and see if that works out. And most of them liked me, until I changed to Democracy when suddenly all of them hate me (though I could turn the Chinese gracious again now). I know that governments have an influence in relationships, but this feature is sooo completely unreflected in the game. First you don't know their government and if you don't look into the editor you don't even know the values. They only suddenly get mad and you think WTF is wrong NOW?!?!!?
Firaxis could have made that a bit better.

	14-09-2004 23:43									#7
	Inflate your Upload Space

Lookis like you are using a mod as those are not the correct stats for those units in an epic game.

	15-09-2004 01:31									#8
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Yes my own mod

	15-09-2004 01:46									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Is there a reason you can't find out their government through the military advisor screen?

	15-09-2004 07:05									#10
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

You can find out their current governments in-game, but you can't find out their preferred/shunned governements without opening up the editor. Preferred/shunned gov'ts are what affect AI attitudes.

quote: by Atahualpa I think they remembered how we cooperatively went against the Japanese...

Yeah, as if! The AI has the memory of a turnip! They frequently accuse me of things I've done in the past to their 'friends'. Meanwhile, they've been at war with their 'friends' for half the game!

	15-09-2004 07:59									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

But only if they coincide with current governments (unless you're in shunned). In any event, it was Ata's wording that threw me off.

	15-09-2004 14:20									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Xorbon Yeah, as if! The AI has the memory of a turnip! They frequently accuse me of things I've done in the past to their 'friends'. Meanwhile, they've been at war with their 'friends' for half the game!

Yes, it's the best kind of memory. The selective one.

	15-09-2004 14:29									#13
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[double post]

	15-09-2004 17:36									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Is there a reason you can't find out their government through the military advisor screen?

thx, I must have overlooked that.
So I am Democracy and the Chinese have Fascism. What does that mean now?
Fascism vs Democracy has -5 Resistance modifier and -10 Propaganda modifier

quote: Yeah, as if! The AI has the memory of a turnip! They frequently accuse me of things I've done in the past to their 'friends'. Meanwhile, they've been at war with their 'friends' for half the game!

What I found out to be extremly bad is when you have a military alliance vs some civ running and during that 20 turns, you make peace with that civ. The former allied civ isn't really amused.

But 20 turns war is a lot, especially when you run Democracy and you have no other choice to piss them off.
Civ3 is really still very very bad on the diplomacy side.

Also it's strange seeing them Gracious in one turn and after Mutual Protection and Rights of Passage expire they are annoyed again.

I got a strange deal today from the greeks. They wanted a mutual protection pact and 28 gold per turn from me (they are polite towards me). As if I could gain something in this deal!??!? I am the most powerful civ on earth meanwhile. Anybody who wants a mutual protection pact from me has to pay and not demand. tstststs

	15-09-2004 21:42									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Squash them! Conquer them all and deport them.

That's one feature I wish the game had - the ability to relocate your population (one recent example - Saddam's relocation of Sunnis into a Kurd city and orginial Kurd residents to some mud villages in the south - something like that) and to deport them. Of course there'd be consquences such as increased corruption and unhappiness.

	15-09-2004 23:29									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

You can do that, Barinthus. Just build settlers/workers out of the native population and replace them with workers/settlers built in your cities with your population. It's a standard tactic.

	16-09-2004 02:11									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

As predicted the Chinese turned Furious after I declared peace with Cartago and Zululand. Even my 1000gc donation did not do anything.
The AI just wants to get destroyed if it can't honor friendship.

	16-09-2004 03:26									#18
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It's normal AI behaviour. By making peace with someone while in alliance against him, you break the alliance treaty. The more of those you break, the less respected you will be in negotiations. The same thing happens if you make peace and then declare war again, before 20 turns have passed. Actuall, I'd become angry too, if you wouldn't keep your word. Very angry.

	16-09-2004 16:54									#19
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Yeah, but the Cartagians very almost defeated by that time. I have completely fulfilled our treaty.
Anyway they probably dislike me too because I declared peace with the Zulu who attacked the Chinese and we had a mutual peace pact. But I'd like to point out that this is no real war, just some tiresome fighting over control of the seas, which is quite easy to accomplish given the Zulu's puny navy.
The AI needs to recognize wars that are not really wars and the Zulus will be dealt with, but at a later date.

I had a game recently where the english declared war against the american. Both were completely seperated and needed to cross the whole map to get to each other. So the english sent lots of longbowman and horseman through my territory and when they finally made it through, they declared peace again and all the troops returned. I bet there wasn't a single attack. That's really a pointless war.

But now that I think of it, this might be exploitable if you are facism or monarchy and declare on democratic civs and never make peace, in the end they'd suffer heavy from war weariness, while your people don't mind at all.
Within 15 turns you could completely screw up their science progress. And it is sufficient to just be defensive and fight them off.

	16-09-2004 17:42									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Yeah, but the Cartagians very almost defeated by that time. I have completely fulfilled our treaty. Anyway they probably dislike me too because I declared peace with the Zulu who attacked the Chinese and we had a mutual peace pact. But I'd like to point out that this is no real war, just some tiresome fighting over control of the seas, which is quite easy to accomplish given the Zulu's puny navy. The AI needs to recognize wars that are not really wars and the Zulus will be dealt with, but at a later date.

Well, it doesn't. So if you make a treaty, then stick to it - even if it looks silly. This will help you keep good relations with the AI. That is, if you want to keep good relations.

quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa But now that I think of it, this might be exploitable if you are facism or monarchy and declare on democratic civs and never make peace, in the end they'd suffer heavy from war weariness, while your people don't mind at all. Within 15 turns you could completely screw up their science progress. And it is sufficient to just be defensive and fight them off.

It is a standard way of crippling the AI economy. Stay in war with them long enough and they will switch governments to a form without War Weariness.