15-09-2004 01:51									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Sava You're assuming that legal immigration is a fast and easy process. If that were the case, I'd agree with you.

It isn't fast nor easy but it can be done and 9 times out of 10 you'll even be allowed in the country while your paper work is pending. I know lots of hard working people, including me father and my grandparents, who successfully went through the process. Those people who break the law have spit in the faces of honest people who are waiting in line and who want to follow this countries laws. Manufestly they are criminals, liars, cheats, and they never pay enough in taxes to cover the huge amounts of money local governments must give to these free loaders. There have been studies after studies after studies on illegals and taxes and just about every honest one has said illegals suck up more government services then they ever pay in taxes.

Not only are they criminals but that are expensive free loading criminals. I wouldn't mind paying subidies to them if they had followed our laws and even tried to come here legally but these people are to busy to be bothered with little things like the law.

quote: And also Oerdin, the immigration process is so unfair and skewed. Some rich Saudi would have no problem coming to America, but some poor Mexican is **** out of luck.

Are you insane? Do you think any Arab can get in here easily post 9/11? The system is puckered up so tight now that even college students from nonmusilm countries like China have a hard time getting student visas. Tell them your a Saudi and then see how easy it is to get in here!

	15-09-2004 01:52									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Sava The Pentagon probably wastes that much in the time it takes to type this message. And most of that cost is with shipping them out and holding them.

??
Are you talking about money being spent on enforcement?

quote: According to critics of the spanish election... changing policies because of terrorists means the terrorists win.

The terrorists win when you decide to appease them, yes.

quote: because we can use intelligence to identify and aprehend known terrorists... we can't do that if they are hopping a border unbeknownst to us.

Which is exactly why the border needs to be enforced.

quote: look at the cost of the Iraq war. We can't even secure the Iraq border and we're spending more than $100 billion per year there. It'd cost a whole shitload more to try and secure the Mexican border.

You're not seriously trying to compare Iraq to the Mexican border are you?

quote: How would enforcing the border cost less? Would border guards work for free? Would all the supplies they need be provided free of charge? What about detention centers and the cost of deporting aliens? All of that is going to cost money my friend.

In the long run it will be cheaper than allowing the taxpayer to foot an increasingly large bill to pay for illegal aliens.

quote: The entry of our enemies? What enemies? How many terrorists have been confirmed coming across the Mexican border? Did the 9-11 hijackers come across the border? Sorry, but even if terrorists DID come into the country that way (because they haven't) I still don't think we should close the borders just to stop a couple dozen would-be terrorists.

Oh, really?

quote: We need to streamline the legal immigration system so that we don't have a flood of people crossing the border. We need to open things, not close them. That way, we can better patrol the borders because we're not dealing with tons of people crossing it.

There would be far less people crossing the border if they knew that employers wouldn't hire them (for fear of prosecution by the govt) and their legal status would be checked in every school and hospital whose services they tried to utilize.

	15-09-2004 01:54									#33
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't respect our laws. I speed, smoke dope, etc. Are you suggesting I should hold others to a standard which I do not hold myself to?

Unfortunately, we can't deport unemployed commie scum but we can make sure more of you don't get into the country.

Seriously, once a person is in the country the government has a limited ability to control the situation. Like it or not our democratic government has decided that a certain number of new citizens can come to our country each year and we should pick only the best out of the people who want to come here. To me an obvious difference is whither a person is law abiding or not.

	15-09-2004 01:55									#34
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara The sad thing is that you think for most Americans there is a difference. The anti-immigrant movement, whith whih you have insanely allied yourself, is not against illegal immigration. They are opposed to immigration, legal and illegal.

I've yet to meet a single American who feels that way. You seem to have constructed a mighty strawman in your mind.

quote: The saddest thing, though, is that you can't tell sarcasm.

Of course I knew you were being sarcastic.

	15-09-2004 02:02									#35
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If we didn't have jobs for them, they wouldn't be here. Demand for illegal immigrants is what brings them here.

The truth is many companies have used illegal immigrants to break unions in their plants. Look at poutry plants. The illegals are afraid to unionize or talk about wages because they're afraid the management will call the cops on them plus the companies use the cheap illegals to break the unions and force down wages. Face it illegals have been the bain of organized labor in this country.

Why hire a $25 per hour union guy when you can get a wet back to do the same work for $8 per hour? All that and since the illegal works under the table no taxes are paid. Society is the only loser here.

	15-09-2004 02:03									#36
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If we didn't have jobs for them, they wouldn't be here. Demand for illegal immigrants is what brings them here.

Also even if the economy was bad we'd still have illegals coming here because the economy is so much worse were they are coming from. Even living in our slums is better then living in their slums.

	15-09-2004 02:05									#37
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara If we didn't have jobs for them, they wouldn't be here. Demand for illegal immigrants is what brings them here.

Yes, demand from greedy employers who flout immigration laws and don't want to pay a fair wage.

	15-09-2004 02:09									#38
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quote: We shouldn't let fear or the threat of terrorists dictate our policies. If the terrorists are dictating are actions, they've won.

Under that logic we should go back to the airport security we had in the 1990s just to show a macho "you haven't won mr.terrorist" image.

Furthermore, if immigration laws are a problem that does not make illegal immigration right. Two wrongs don't make a right.

	15-09-2004 02:11									#39
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Immigration

Illegal immigration

Amnesty and legalization for illegal immigrants

	15-09-2004 02:17									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Sava these people are only "illegal" because the "legal" US immigration system is slow and inefficient... the only thing they are guilty of is wanting to have a better life...

And, well, violating the law and all that.

	15-09-2004 02:20									#41
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I'm also against amnesty programs because they inevitably reward people for criminal behavior plus the politicians always play games with those programs. The politicos only make programs for the ethnic groups that vote for them or who they think will vote for them and then they leave the rest out in the cold.

When I was in college I worked at the home depot with a Dutch fellow who married an American girl but who latter divorced her. They had a daughter and he wanted to stay in the US because he didn't want to move his daughter to a new place. The problem was when they got divorced he lost his US citizenship. any way one say he reads about an illegal alien amnesty program and he goes down to sign up. The democrat who passed the bill authorizing the program made sure it only legalized Mexicans living in that country and not any other national groups. The reason was the politician had a close election coming up and she wanted to make the Mexicans happy while pissing off as few of the die hard Republicans as possible.

These programs are just games that politicians play and they reward criminals.

	15-09-2004 02:27									#42
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Sava: Here is a short list of crimes most illegal immigrants are probably guilty off just off of the top of my head. Illegal entry, using a false social security number, lying on tax forms, and if my own personal experience of watching people running across eight lane freeways to escape the border patrol is any indication then we can add on resisting arrest by a lawful peace officer of the United States.

Face it they are criminals and we don't need any more criminals. What ever extra labor our economy needs we can get legal immigrants to fill. These criminals should be hunted down and deported and repeat offenders should be given hard labor to discourage the rest. Employers who hire them should be fined out of existance to send a message to the other companies. The people from Mexico should be deported to Vera Cruz (or some other place in southern Mexico) and not just 10 feet across the border where they will turn around and try again.

	15-09-2004 02:37									#43
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How are illegal immigrant different from all immigrants to the Americas prior to the mid to late 19th century when immigration controls begun to be created? That they are 170 years too late to simple get up an move?

	15-09-2004 02:38									#44
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If the laws didn't exist at the time then you can't break them can you? The laws do exist now though... don't they?

	15-09-2004 02:43									#45
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Ignore this one, the next one is better - network mesed up at work.

	15-09-2004 02:46									#46
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If the process of legal immigration takes long time - well, tough luck. Things worthwhile getting often aren't that easy to get.

Most countries especially the First World ones screen their immigrants, why shouldnt Americans do the same? During the early days of the country, we were starved for people to come here to help us build our country. The need is not as great today as it was back then.

As for low-paying jobs, I say, give them to our homeless and high school teenagers (summer time only of course) who are spoiled and need some character building anyway.

Amensity programs only encourage more illegals to come in so

I'm not saying the system is perfect - I definitely support the idea of reforming the whole process of legal immigration since it'd benefit everybody including Americans. But, come on, at least I expect foreigners to respect our system until we get around to set up a new one.

After all when I travel aboard my rule is that I am a guest in their country and I act accordingly. I respect their customs and their way of life and I expect vice versa from others who come to the States.

	15-09-2004 03:30									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Oerdin I'm also against amnesty programs because they inevitably reward people for criminal behavior ...

...not to mention increase costs for the taxpayer.

	15-09-2004 03:35									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Barinthus Most countries especially the First World ones screen their immigrants, why shouldnt Americans do the same?

Hey, even some 3rd-world countries are against illegal immigration:

Mexico Deports American Illegal Aliens

Washington Post, Sep. 12


TIJUANA, Mexico—Authorities closed three rehabilitation centers in northern Mexico this week and deported hundreds of U.S. teenagers sent there for treatment of drug, alcohol or behavior problems, immigration officials said.

Authorities shut the three centers in the Baja California towns of Ensenada and Rosarito on Friday and began deporting 590 youths, many of whom were in Mexico illegally.

A man who answered the phone at one of the centers identified by the immigration officials, the House of Hope Academy in the Pacific coastal town of Ensenada, declined to comment.

The other two centers could not be immediately identified and contacted for comment.

Mexico investigated the centers after complaints of maltreatment, and found the youths had entered Mexico as tourists, not residents of treatment programs, the National Immigration Institute said.

(Posted on September 14, 2004)

	15-09-2004 04:03									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Sava these people are only "illegal" because the "legal" US immigration system is slow and inefficient... the only thing they are guilty of is wanting to have a better life...

So when I steal someone else's car, the only thing I am guilty of is wanting a better life via a new Mercedes?

	15-09-2004 04:18									#50
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The link didn't work..

	15-09-2004 08:45									#51
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Good for them
That 3 million number is vastly inflated as well, as very few of those 3 million come to the US and stay there forever, many hop back and forth over the border many many times and thus can get counted again and again.

My ancestors came to the US right before the racist 3% immigration laws, which would've probably kept them out. I'm damn happy that my family was able to come over when there was a liberal immigration policy and I don't see why other people's family's shouldn't be able to do the same thing.

	15-09-2004 09:57									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Sava absolutely... America is a nation of immigrants.

Name a country that isn't.

	15-09-2004 10:03									#53
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switzerland, finland, china, madagascar.

	15-09-2004 10:34									#54
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So people just popped out of the ground in those countries?

	15-09-2004 10:42									#55
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No, they were there before they decided to make those countries.

	15-09-2004 10:49									#56
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The colonists got here before they decided to revolt and form the US.

	15-09-2004 10:59									#57
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara I don't respect our laws. I speed, smoke dope, etc. Are you suggesting I should hold others to a standard which I do not hold myself to?

No, but don't be surprised if other people hold you up to theirs.

	15-09-2004 11:01									#58
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the problem with the colonists was that they weren't the first. and secondly, they weren't the last either.

	15-09-2004 11:03									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Lawrence of Arabia the problem with the colonists was that they weren't the first. and secondly, they weren't the last either.

	15-09-2004 11:08									#60
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quote: Originally posted by chegitz guevara smoke dope, etc.

That maybe why you loose so many jobs.