21-09-2004 04:25									#211
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Bullshit. Critical thinking is taking an argument apart and analyizing it in detail. Math ain't going to do that. It'll teach you how to deal with numbers, but it ain't going to jack for actual arguments.

Nonsense, take a high-level discrete mathematics course before talking about this any further.

"argument" = "statement" or "theory", and you've got yourself math.

It's a very common fallacy among the uneducated ( ) that critical thinking has to involve an plain-old-jane English-type argument. In reality, the argument could be that all even numbers are divisible by two (an extremely basic math proof, and I bet you couldn't do it). Go ahead and exercise your critical thinking skills on that. It's a simple 2-line proof...

Arithmetic tells you how to deal with numbers, not math.

	21-09-2004 04:26									#212
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Have you ever done one?

I've done many hundreds, at the very least...

	21-09-2004 04:28									#213
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Some. I always found that part the most difficult and time consuming.

I very, very much doubt you've ever designed your own algorithm for anything non-trivial.

	21-09-2004 04:31									#214
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Surely, since at a top college everyone would have AP in their major, the intro to CS would be goign on from there?

Not necessarily, people change majors a lot.

quote: Moreover, wouldn't there be a harder AP course in your last year, before college?

The College Board creates AP courses. There's nothing past AP CS. However, my school happens to offer post-AP CS courses, which I am currently taking

	21-09-2004 04:32									#215
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IB CS is past AP CS.

	21-09-2004 04:33									#216
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We don't have IB at our school, just AP.

	21-09-2004 04:48									#217
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"Everyone should at least know basic calculus."

Uhhh - no. I can't think of a single reason to. Literature and living is my life, and calculus just doesn't apply. Physics - now that I can understand. But I just don't personally need calc.

	21-09-2004 07:20									#218
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Some. I always found that part the most difficult and time consuming.

The original point was about making BETTER algorithm.
I can bet you have never done any of that, and your original point about that being close to number crunching being totally off.

	21-09-2004 07:47									#219
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Everyone should at least know basic calculus.

Why?

I can't fathom a reason, as a criminal attorney, that I would possibly use Calculus either in my career or in day to day life, and I'd wager that the vast vast majority of college grads find it similarly useless.

	21-09-2004 08:00									#220
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Show me philosophy that is rigorous like math. Otherwise, concede the point.

Read the modern metaphysicians. They are vastly indestructible. Spinoza, Leibniz, Wolff. Also try to deconstruct the 'Critique of Pure Reason' and then come back to me.

	21-09-2004 08:02									#221
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to Drogue BTW

	21-09-2004 08:04									#222
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Read the modern metaphysicians. They are vastly indestructible. Spinoza, Leibniz, Wolff. Also try to deconstruct the 'Critique of Pure Reason' and then come back to me.

Anything in philosophy is destructable, as there is nothing known absolutely.

	21-09-2004 08:11									#223
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quote: Originally posted by Ramo Ah, so that's what philosophy classes are for: being able to declare arguments you disagree with as sophism.

If you see the word 'sophist' as a pejorative, then it is time for a little bit of self-criticism. They rank as highly proficient defenders of your very own ideology.

	21-09-2004 08:12									#224
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quote: Originally posted by Asher Anything in philosophy is destructable, as there is nothing known absolutely.

As is the case for all sciences. I was only pointing out that a certain tradition of philosophy achieved near-math level riguor in their argumentative arborescence.

	21-09-2004 08:13									#225
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris As is the case for all sciences. I was only pointing out that a certain tradition of philosophy achieved near-math level riguor in their argumentative arborescence.

Yes, that's true.

Mathematics (and its applied cousins) are the only ones where we can say something is indestrucable, because it's a construct we've created with boundaries.

	21-09-2004 08:15									#226
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quote: Value judgements are not moral judgements.

Wrong. They are correlative statements pitted against a certain conception of what is good, wishable, etc.

quote: The fact that I enjoy some result more than some other result is not an indication of some belief in absolute morality, but rather simple individual preference. Just like you can think vanilla ice cream tastes better while not believing that vanilla ice cream is objectively "better".

Then there is no point in discussing personal tastes.

quote: I've never seen relativism used as an escape route.

Imran comes to mind, but many people who fancy themselves as relativists do it.

Oh, and Hume is not a relativist!!!

	21-09-2004 08:17									#227
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quote: Then there is no point in discussing personal tastes.

As far as I'm concerned, philosophy is a personal taste. And I agree.

	21-09-2004 08:59									#228
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Aristotle:

P1: Either we should do philosophy, or we shouldn't.
P2: If we should do philosophy, we should do philosophy.
P3: If we shouldn't do philosophy, then we should do philosophy (in order to justify not doing it).

C: Therefore, we should do philosophy.

	21-09-2004 09:18									#229
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quote: Show me philosophy that is rigorous like math. Otherwise, concede the point.

Principia Mathematica by Russell and Whitehead.

Wittgenstein's Tractatus.

Oh and is anyone else @ Asher's attempts to argue against philosophy by dogmatically asserting his own answers to philosophical questions?

	21-09-2004 09:19									#230
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My beef isn't with philosophy, but taxpayers money going to teaching it to people who major in it, only to work at McDonalds or construction jobs.

	21-09-2004 09:36									#231
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My beef, and even my pork and my chicken, is with people being hired by a company who made a fortune in Third Reich business.

	21-09-2004 09:38									#232
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris My beef, and even my pork and my chicken, is with people being hired by a company who made a fortune in Third Reich business.

Keep it up and I'll put you on "the list".

	21-09-2004 09:50									#233
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quote: My beef isn't with philosophy, but taxpayers money going to teaching it to people who major in it, only to work at McDonalds or construction jobs.

Or philosophy jobs? Or being the Prime Minister of Canada, or the former head of Ferrari and now head of Fiat? Or the head of the Bank of Montréal?

We're everywhere, and we're usually telling folk like you what to do.

	21-09-2004 09:55									#234
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quote: We're everywhere, and we're usually telling folk like you what to do.

Name one successful technology company with a CEO that has a Philosophy degree.

I rest my case...

	21-09-2004 09:58									#235
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Dude, I'd rather own Fiat than be a CEO of a 'successful technology company'... well except if that company is Microsoft .

	21-09-2004 10:00									#236
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Carly Fiorina - mediaeval history and philosophy at Stanford.

That's one I know of right off the bat.


Here's a list of some famous people who have a degree in philosophy.


Pacemakers and Change Agents

Kristin M. Baker, first female brigade commnder West Point
Bob Moses, Civil Rights Activist
Carol Heckman, First woman U.S. Magistrate in the Western District
Stokley Carmichael/Kwame Ture, Civil Rights activist
Michael Murphy, Co-founder, Eslen Institute

Perfomers

Juan Williams -- NPR host "Talk of the Nation," wrier, journalist (Washington Post)
Bruce Lee, martial arts & actor
Gene Siskel, Movie Critic
Jeff Smith, Host, the Frugal Gourmet
Steve Thomas--Host, This Old House
Alex Trebek--Host Jeoprady
Stone Philips, Broadcaster

BUSINESS

Lachan Murdock, Media mangnate & executive
George Soros--Financier & Money Manager
Christy Haubegger, Publisher Latina and Entrepreneur
Carly Fiorina, CEO, Hewlett-Packard
Moses Znaimer--Owner of CITY-TV and MUCH-MUSIC, Toronto

SOCIAL STUDIES
Gertrude Himmelfarb--Historian
Michael Spense - Economist, Nobel Prize (2001)
C. Vann Woodward--Historian

GOVERNMENT AND POLITICS

William Bennett--Secretary of Education and Head of the Drug Enforcement Agency
Rudy Giuliani, Former Mayor of New York
Angela Davis--Social Activist and Politcial Philsopher
Jules Debray--Writer and Government Official, France
Thomas Jefferson--U.S. President
Aung San Suu Kyi--Human Rights Activist, Nobel Peace Prize Winner (2002)
Robert MacNamara-- Secretary of Defense and Head of the World Bank
John Silber--Candidate for Governor of Massachusetts and President of Boston University
David Souter--Supreme Court Justice
Stephen Bryer, Surpreme Court Justice

ARTS AND LETTERS

Mary Higgins Clark--Mystery Writer
Ethan Coen--Film Maker
Arthur Davis, African-American writer & educator
Deepa Mehta, Indo-Canadian filmmaker
Umberto Eco--Novelist and Semiologist
Ken Follett--British Writer
Michael Frayn--Novelist
Northrup Frye--Literary Critic
Martin Gardner--Essayist
Philip Glass--Composer
Rebecca Goldstein--Novelist
Claude Lanzsmann--Film Maker
Charles Johnson, African-American auhtor; contributor to founding os discipline of "Black Stuides"
Ira Levin--Writer
Iris Murdoch--Novelist
Steve Reich--Composer
Meyer Schapiro--Art Critic
Wallace Shawn--Playwright and Actor
Susan Sontag--Writer
David Foster Wallace--Novelist
Robert Motherwell -- Painter

RELIGION

Joseph Bernardin--Cardinal, Chicago
Mircea Eliade--Religious Studies
Michael Lerner--Editor/Publisher Tikkun Magazine
George Pires, Nobel Peace Prize (1958)
Madelyn Murray O'Hair-- Famous Atheist
Pope John Paul II--Vicar of Christ

Nobel Prize Winners

Rudolph Euken (Literature 1908)
Pearl Buck (Literaure 1937)
Albert Schweitzer (Peace, 1952)
Jean-Marie Lehn (Chemistry 1987)
P. Michael Spense (Economics 2001)
Aung San Suu Kyi (Peace, 2002

They forgot Bertrand Russell. But I guess he is most famous for being a philosopher.

	21-09-2004 10:00									#237
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Dude, I'd rather own Fiat than be a CEO of a 'successful technology company'... well except if that company is Microsoft .

I'd rather be the CEO of IBM, Microsoft, or Intel myself...

Fiat is rather dinky in comparison.

	21-09-2004 10:02									#238
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quote: Originally posted by Agathon Carly Fiorina - mediaeval history and philosophy at Stanford.

CARLY!?

LOL.

You do realize how widely hated she is, and how many people think she's grossly inept and demand her head.

quote: Steve Thomas--Host, This Old House Alex Trebek--Host Jeoprady Stone Philips, Broadcaster

	21-09-2004 10:02									#239
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I'm particularly proud of Bruce Lee.

	21-09-2004 10:03									#240
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quote: You do realize how widely hated she is, and how many people think she's grossly inept and demand her head.

Could it have anything to do with the fact that she's a woman in a man's world?

As for the rest, it just shows how you don't know what you are talking about. Jeez.. we've got the ****ing pope on our side.