20-09-2004 00:35									#31
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quote: I've never seen much point in trying to prove the existence of god(s) unless that proof also entails that god(s) must take a given form or have a given set of (dis)likes or whatever. I mean, otherwise the proof of the existence of god(s) doesn't really get you anywhere meaningful, unless you're willing to resort to some fantastic leaps of logic, e.g., "God is the First Cause, therefore, God hates fags," or "There can be nothing greater than God, therefore, I shouldn't eat pork," etc.

Well, consider what we have in this thread already.

If there is a God, the he should be omnipotent, omniscient and eternal. There should be only one.

That narrows the field rather considerably.

We are left with other things like whether or not God must be loving, or whether he must be merciful, and what does he think of humanity.

And we haven't even shown any differences between a deist, and a more active God, who does works here on Earth.

I think that you can show him to be loving. If he were responsible for the creation of life on Earth, then why would he do so if he were cruel? If he hated life, then why would he seek to create life?

	20-09-2004 00:45									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If there is a God, the he should be omnipotent, omniscient and eternal. There should be only one.

That certainly isn't entailed from the "first cause" argument, which is the only one that holds any water.

quote: We are left with other things like whether or not God must be loving, or whether he must be merciful, and what does he think of humanity.

You evidently got bored with our last debate on these subjects, so far be it from me to bore you a second time.

	20-09-2004 00:51									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Whaleboy Some people are so set in their ways because they have this psychological attachment to their ideas, which is a little pathetic really imo.

I view those who have no beliefs and no passion about their beliefs to be pretty boring, and not as interesting as others (and generally don't take very much time for them).

Jon Miller

	20-09-2004 00:58									#34
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quote: You evidently got bored with our last debate on these subjects, so far be it from me to bore you a second time.

Then PM me, ok?

What happens is that the threads get buried and I miss them.

	20-09-2004 01:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I don't have time to compile all the requirements for life on Earth, but this should give you an idea of the difficulties of the chance forming life. Now, this is just one tiny part of the evolution of animals. So if there is a 1 in 10^6900 chance of forming life randomly, then you have a question as to how this can happen when you only have 10^79 atoms in the universe. There are only three ways that people have gotten around this. 1. They postulate an infinitely large universe. 2. They postulate an eternal universe. 3. They postulate an infinite number of universes. All three are mere evasions and speculations from the hard truth that chance is very unlikely to be responsible for the things that we see in nature. http://bip.cnrs-mrs.fr/bip10/hoyle.htm

All irrelevent, because there could be processes that favor something arranging into such a sequence. It's like asking "what's the probability of a bunch of matter ending up in a clump big enough to start nuclear fusion and radiate light?" - quite high, because of gravity.

	20-09-2004 01:12									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi If there is a God, the he should be omnipotent, omniscient and eternal.

BS. Did you read the big long thing I posted (it's from Hume's An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding)?

	20-09-2004 01:12									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Then PM me, ok? What happens is that the threads get buried and I miss them.

The first few times that you left a debate hanging I went to the trouble of hounding you into responding, and to your credit you did make a couple more posts before you got bored again. It was more trouble on my part than it was worth, though.

	20-09-2004 01:27									#38
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Religion is the ultimate expression of human ego.

	20-09-2004 01:31									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi I don't have time to compile all the requirements for life on Earth, but this should give you an idea of the difficulties of the chance forming life. Now, this is just one tiny part of the evolution of animals. So if there is a 1 in 10^6900 chance of forming life randomly, then you have a question as to how this can happen when you only have 10^79 atoms in the universe. There are only three ways that people have gotten around this. 1. They postulate an infinitely large universe. 2. They postulate an eternal universe. 3. They postulate an infinite number of universes.

Actually there's another. That atoms don't fall in random patterns. As has been shown by Roger Lewin, these things aren't random, but have chaotic attractors, making some things *far* more likely than mere randomness would suggest. Life isn't actually that unlikely, and the probability is far smaller than that you posted.

	20-09-2004 02:00									#40
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Such as stars

	20-09-2004 02:03									#41
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quote: Originally posted by problem_child Religion is the ultimate expression of human ego.

If you could hear the fundies around here you would believe religion is the ultimate expression of human ignorance. These fundies are the kind of folks who think fossils are creations of Satan to decieve us.

	20-09-2004 02:05									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue Actually there's another. That atoms don't fall in random patterns. As has been shown by Roger Lewin, these things aren't random, but have chaotic attractors, making some things *far* more likely than mere randomness would suggest. Life isn't actually that unlikely, and the probability is far smaller than that you posted.

	20-09-2004 02:24									#43
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quote: All irrelevent, because there could be processes that favor something arranging into such a sequence. It's like asking "what's the probability of a bunch of matter ending up in a clump big enough to start nuclear fusion and radiate light?" - quite high, because of gravity.

Actually, it's not that simple in this case. Can you say that there is a reasonable process that facilitates this sort of reaction?

	20-09-2004 02:26									#44
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quote: It was more trouble on my part than it was worth, though.

Well, if I'm remembering that thread, and we've had many, that was the one on how much of my body can I lose and still be me?

It was a very good question, and I had to spend some time working on it before I could make a reasonable reply.

And you got me reading a book that I had forgotten I had read some time ago.

So thanks for asking that question.

	20-09-2004 02:47									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Actually, it's not that simple in this case.

Yes it is.

quote: Can you say that there is a reasonable process that facilitates this sort of reaction?

Yes. Ever heard of chemistry?

	20-09-2004 02:55									#46
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....repeat for 5 pages........and continue............repeat for 5 pages......... and continue............repeat

	20-09-2004 03:19									#47
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quote: Yes. Ever heard of chemistry?

Yes I have.

Why would we expect these complex chemicals to form?

Proteins aren't that simple.

	20-09-2004 03:21									#48
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quote: As has been shown by Roger Lewin, these things aren't random, but have chaotic attractors, making some things *far* more likely than mere randomness would suggest.

Really. A link would be helpful.

	20-09-2004 03:23									#49
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quote: If you could hear the fundies around here you would believe religion is the ultimate expression of human ignorance. These fundies are the kind of folks who think fossils are creations of Satan to decieve us

Uh, right Odin.

I suppose I'm a fundy, eh?

	20-09-2004 03:32									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Really. A link would be helpful.

Considering it's a book there isn't a link. Complexity, by Roger Lewin is probably the best way to read about it, and it cites the various academic texts that back it up. Some were available on Princeton's website a while ago, but I think that was only temporary, when they'd just been published.

	20-09-2004 03:34									#51
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I bought him the book

I'll answer some points tomorrow, me needs sleep!

	20-09-2004 03:35									#52
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Most of the time people who do believe in God and try to prove his existance, already assume he exists beforehand. The logics of their explanations are completely bollox then. Objectively it's impossible to prove it, as everybody knows.

Besides, why would one need a deity to explain for things that are are not explained easily. How hard the questions are, there's always an explanation for it, how far fetched or impossible that may seem. Most of the time we won't be able to understand and answer certain questions because we just can't grasp them well enough; Sometimes it's simply impossible for us to explain certain questions. That's not a reason to have a God however.

There's no point in this. Every culture has created its own God(s), why should this one exist? Simply because we are the superior civilization we can say our God exists, while other mythologies and deities are untrue?

	20-09-2004 03:41									#53
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quote: Complexity,. by Roger Lewin is probably the best way to read about it, and it cites the various academic texts that back it up. Some were available on Princeton's website a while ago, but I think that was only temporary, when they'd just been published.

PM me the citations, and I'll see what I can dig up.

	20-09-2004 03:42									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Yes I have. Why would we expect these complex chemicals to form?

Empirical observations, perhaps?

quote: Proteins aren't that simple.

Their base components are, and readily form long chains. It's similar for RNA (which actually composed the first enzymes).

	20-09-2004 03:45									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Trajanus There's no point in this. Every culture has created its own God(s), why should this one exist? Simply because we are the superior civilization we can say our God exists, while other mythologies and deities are untrue?

Exactly my problem. Should a, or many, gods exist, it would be a massively low probability to happen to be this one, as opposed to all others through history, and all other possible.

I don't rule out the possibility of a god or not, it's not known either way. But I'm not going to follow one faith when it is not more likely to be right than any other. I think if a god existed, that is this good and righteous force (which I would doubt), he'd be far more concerned that people have lived their lives well and amde others happy, rather than followed some particular teachings. I feel I'm a good person, and I try to make others happy. If I am to meet my maker, I think he'd understand.

	20-09-2004 03:50									#56
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quote: Most of the time people who do believe in God and try to prove his existance, already assume he exists beforehand. The logics of their explanations are completely bollox then.

Which is why we should accept the skeptics who do not believe in God, and who try to disprove the theists.

quote: Objectively it's impossible to prove it, as everybody knows.

Everybody knows, eh? Guess some missed the bulletin.

Why don't you just drop the semblence of objectivity supposedly harnessed exclusively by the skeptics, and get down to more substantive matters?

quote: Besides, why would one need a deity to explain for things that are are not explained easily.

Some would argue we have a hunger for God. It's not so much that he helps us understand certain things, but that he is there.

quote: How hard the questions are, there's always an explanation for it, how far fetched or impossible that may seem.

True, and often those explanations are the ones dreamed up first by theologians.

Remember that joke about the scientists and the historian and the philosopher climbing up the mountain of truth, only to find the theologians sitting up at the top, wondering why it took everyone so long to join them?

quote: Most of the time we won't be able to understand and answer certain questions because we just can't grasp them well enough; Sometimes it's simply impossible for us to explain certain questions. That's not a reason to have a God however.

Nor is that reason to reject God. One would expect to lack understanding even with God.

quote: There's no point in this. Every culture has created its own God(s), why should this one exist? Simply because we are the superior civilization we can say our God exists, while other mythologies and deities are untrue?

Some say they are glimpses of God throughout history, and that by definition, ours should be better because we have the greater weight of experience, and have progressive revelation.

	20-09-2004 03:58									#57
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God does not exist. Plain and simple.

There's no point in trying to prove or disprove him with any hard science, because it's not possible.

God is nothing more than an interesting anthropological phenomenon. An "invisible friend" gone awry.

	20-09-2004 03:59									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator God does not exist. Plain and simple. There's no point in trying to prove or disprove him with any hard science, because it's not possible.

	20-09-2004 04:06									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Mercator God does not exist. Plain and simple. There's no point in trying to prove or disprove him with any hard science, because it's not possible. God is nothing more than an interesting anthropological phenomenon. An "invisible friend" gone awry.

Whilst I totally agree with the last paragragh, surely the second paragraph contradicts the first?

	20-09-2004 04:12									#60
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quote: Empirical observations, perhaps?

Then I suppose given the chemical composition of the early earth, we should be able to replicate protein chains.

Sadly every attempt to do so has failed. Granted, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but it does show there is no empirical basis for the theories put forth on the earliest formation of life here on Earth.