20-09-2004 07:43									#1
	beefing up science output Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

somehow, the computer always outresearches me and it drives me nuts. I'm the kind of guy that always played psilon in moo2 (and a custom psilon with alien artifacts homeworld after the patch that upped the creative cost to 8), and always plays a scientific race in civ3. its hard for me to stomach that I can't seem to play like that in civ3 unless i play at a difficulty that takes the fun out of playing it to begin with.

that was just a rant, not really my problem (but hints welcome!!)

My question relates to changing population to scientists to up my research rate. I've already checked this thread, which confirmed my theory that the displayed beaker output of a colony did not include beakers from scientists.

Questions:
1 - The thread mentions that science specialists provide a flat 2 beakers per turn... is this true?
2 - I made a bunch of scientists in my cities, but it still takes just as long to research electronics! this drives me crazy cuz i want that hoover dam wonder!

thx in advance

	20-09-2004 07:56									#2
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Get a better economy.

	20-09-2004 08:10									#3
	Re: beefing up science output Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by yimboli 1 - The thread mentions that science specialists provide a flat 2 beakers per turn... is this true?

If you're playing with the Conquests expansion, Scientists produce a flat 3 Beakers per turn (unaffected by Science-boosting buildings like Libraries and Universities). If you're playing any earlier version, Scientists only produce 1 Beaker per turn.

quote: 2 - I made a bunch of scientists in my cities, but it still takes just as long to research electronics!

Consider that a tech costs on the order of thousands of Beakers, so adding, say, 30 Beakers per turn to what you already have is unlikely to produce a noticeable effect in the ETA for your tech.

	21-09-2004 00:38									#4
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thanks for the responses.

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Get a better economy.

care to elaborate? specifically, what do you mean by "economy"? do you just mean trade improvements and government type? or is there more to it than that?

	21-09-2004 13:06									#5
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quote: Originally posted by yimboli ... care to elaborate? specifically, what do you mean by "economy"? do you just mean trade improvements and government type? or is there more to it than that?

What level do you play at btw, total n00b or somewhat seasoned?

No offense, it just makes it easier helping you when I know your skill level

	21-09-2004 16:43									#6
	Re: beefing up science output Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by yimboli somehow, the computer always outresearches me ... unless i play at a difficulty that takes the fun out of playing it to begin with.

I think he's quite advanced. At warlord the ai never outreasearches ...

with economy they mean the gold: instead of using scientists u better generate as much gold as possible with roads and so on, and then dedicate some of it to science via the tax slider. Then build libarys and universitys to enlarge the effect.

Its normal to be an age behind on emperor or deity, its one of the challenges to survive until u can outtech them.

	21-09-2004 17:42									#7
	Increase Your PM Length

Better economy?

1) boost your population as much as possible, every decent worked tile brings more commerce/research in
2) build scientific improvements (libs, unis, res. labs)
3) spend a lot on research
4) try getting economy-oriented wonders (those that either directly add to your research output or add/save gold you can then invest into your research)
5) TRADE TECHS

The last point is probably what makes you lose your tech races. You need to trade techs to stay ahead. If not for techs then for gold - more gold for you allows faster research (thanks to deficit spending). Less gold for AI(s) limits how fast they can research.

	21-09-2004 19:08									#8
	Re: Re: beefing up science output Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by -SafaN- I think he's quite advanced. At warlord the ai never outreasearches ... with economy they mean the gold: instead of using scientists u better generate as much gold as possible with roads and so on, and then dedicate some of it to science via the tax slider. Then build libarys and universitys to enlarge the effect. Its normal to be an age behind on emperor or deity, its one of the challenges to survive until u can outtech them.

i'm playing on regent, and I always keep my science tax slider at the maximum i can afford while not operating at deficit. libraries and universities are often in the first build queue of a new city cuz i love researching.

you mentioned roads to generate gold... how does that work? i didn't know roads helped generate gold.

quote: Originally posted by vondrack Better economy? 1) boost your population as much as possible, every decent worked tile brings more commerce/research in 2) build scientific improvements (libs, unis, res. labs) 3) spend a lot on research 4) try getting economy-oriented wonders (those that either directly add to your research output or add/save gold you can then invest into your research) 5) TRADE TECHS The last point is probably what makes you lose your tech races. You need to trade techs to stay ahead. If not for techs then for gold - more gold for you allows faster research (thanks to deficit spending). Less gold for AI(s) limits how fast they can research.

i always go for the great library and newton's university in my capital, and smith's trading company if I can get it. i abhor the fact that trading techs is necessary to stay ahead, but i guess that's the cost of cheating AI ... the TDM modpack for Space Empires 4 managed to make an extremely challenging AI that *doesn't* cheat, and in [what i would argue is a] more complicated game. why can't civ3?

	21-09-2004 19:18									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

The AI only got two real cheats, both can be turned around to your advantage anyway
He can see your units all the time
He knows where resoures will apear before he gets the right tech.

Apart from that, he gets a handicap that is adjusted according to difficulty level. At regent humans and AIs are equal. We're talking research discounts, unit support, production discounts etc.

AIs will trade with each other. Unless you want to be left out of the loop, you have to do a lot of trading yourself. They will not embargo you or team up against you just because you're human.

	21-09-2004 20:34									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Apocalypse Get a better economy.

Good idea.

	21-09-2004 22:21									#11
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: you mentioned roads to generate gold... how does that work? i didn't know roads helped generate gold.

This might be your problem, yimboli. Growth and commerce is everything. Use river tiles for extra commerce, and road every worked tile. Follow vondrack's advice for a good economy and make contact with all civs as early as possible to get into the tech trading loop. Don't have too many units for your government type if your priority is science over warfare, and play a scientific civ for cheap libraries. Also, consider beelining Philosophy for the free tech if you're using the C3C expansion.

	21-09-2004 23:37									#12
	Re: Re: Re: beefing up science output Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by yimboli you mentioned roads to generate gold... how does that work? i didn't know roads helped generate gold.

Like Cort Haus said, that is likely your biggest problem right there. Roads are the primary commerce producers for your empire. Every tile that your citizens are working should have a road on it (along with mines and irrigation of course). An unworked non-river grassland tile without a road produces zero commerce. Add a road and that increases your commerce for that tile to one, or more if you are in a republic or democracy. Start adding in the commerce boosters like libraries, etc. and that number increases even more. But all the libraries and marketplaces in the world won't increase your commerce for that worked tile if it doesn't produce any commerce to start with. It sounds to me like you have been relying only on the tiles that naturally produce commerce such as rivers, coast, and the city tile (which by default has a road, you just can't see it). Start roading every tile your citizens are working, along with using Vondrack's suggestions and you're economy will start rising considerably.

	23-09-2004 23:35									#13
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the ai all whore techs with each other, because of the min and max research times, there is no way you can keep up with them unless you join in the tech whoring and exploit the ai's flaws.

	24-09-2004 23:14									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Sorry - Still don't have Civ3. I am waiting for Civ3 Complete, but will be playing soon.

re: TRADE TECHS
In Civ2 we found that trading techs can slow your research down. Did the tech penalty go away in Civ3?

	24-09-2004 23:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by skrobism re: TRADE TECHS In Civ2 we found that trading techs can slow your research down. Did the tech penalty go away in Civ3?

NO penalty for trading techs in Civ3. Definitely.

	25-09-2004 01:22									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by skrobism re: TRADE TECHS In Civ2 we found that trading techs can slow your research down.

I never knew that. Was the penalty permanent or just temporary?

	25-09-2004 03:33									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

It comes from the fact that in Civ2 the cost of researching a tech was dependent on how many techs you already had. Trade techs -> you have more techs -> costs more to research the next one.

	26-09-2004 09:05									#18
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by skrobism Sorry - Still don't have Civ3. I am waiting for Civ3 Complete, but will be playing soon. re: TRADE TECHS In Civ2 we found that trading techs can slow your research down. Did the tech penalty go away in Civ3?

theres a min and max cap on how long research can take, so 15 AI empires working together(there is no other word for it) can clear the field and grab all the immediately available techs in 40 turns, while you only get 1.

	27-09-2004 00:39									#19
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by yimboli ....What do you mean by "economy"? do you just mean trade improvements and government type? or is there more to it than that?

When I refer to an economy I refer to the entire system of treasury, research, and entertainment improvements, the road system, and worker improvements that produce or buy buildings, wonders, or units and increase the efficiency of the economic system (luxury/commerce/research)

The most crucial part of your economy is the road system as each tile which has a road gets a +1 commerce bonus in addition to the normal commerce for the tile. My advice on roads is this, if the tile belongs to you, it needs a road. Remember to build enough workers to get jobs done in a timly manner. 30 workers may be enough for a standard sized map, but you may need up to 70 or 80 on a huge map by the time you reach the middle ages. A good rough guide is to have AT LEAST one worker per city owned.

Almost as important is the manner in which you develop your cities. You should always work a tile that you have a laborer working before you improve a tile in which you do not (roads are an exception, as is irrigating to land that does not have immediate fresh water)

City improvements are important too. Market places, Libraries, Banks, Universities, and Cathedrals are all very important to your economy. Remember that Commerce is divided into 3 sections, you should develop all three in a systematic manner to obtain peak efficiency of the economy.

	02-10-2004 11:02									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

hm... i see a lot about roads and commerce. the thing is, i always have a huge fleet of workers, and my piece of the map is often the first completely roaded, so i don't think that's ever really been the problem. I think the tech whoring is what's getting me. i really don't like that part of civ3. but at least all games arent like this. i can still keep my tech advantage in space empires 4, call to power, and moo2/3

thx for the replies

	02-10-2004 18:28									#21
	on second thought... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

is there some way to disable tech trading? and if so, would it break the AI?

	02-10-2004 18:31									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Wouldn't break it I guess, but it would slow down research to a crawl.

Check the editor, all techs can be made non-tradeable

	02-10-2004 19:08									#23
	Put an end to popups!

yimboli, how often do you research the tech suggested by the science advisor?

What do one has really mentioned is that tech trading can be managed HUGELY to your advantage... you just need to get out ahead of the AIs in a given branch.

	03-10-2004 10:19									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Theseus yimboli, how often do you research the tech suggested by the science advisor? What do one has really mentioned is that tech trading can be managed HUGELY to your advantage... you just need to get out ahead of the AIs in a given branch.

Sometimes you can be a tech whore just by researching one pivital tech. Take writing in the Ancient age or Atomic theory in the Industrial. There are some techs that the AI will pay very dearly for, but you have to know which ones they are to research them first.

In the ancient age I usually research writing and tarde it around for tech parity, plus a little revenue for eventual upgrades. In the Industrial age I usually trade AT to drain excess AI commerce and maintain a slight tech edge.