20-09-2004 17:59									#1
	Medieval Conquest Put an end to popups!

I'm playing the Medieval Conquest for the first time as the Franks (yeah, I'm slow player) and I have a few questions:

1. There are clearly three tech trees: the Norse, the Christian and the Muslim, however it looks like I can research along any of them. Is this true? At the very least, it looks like I can't trade for techs outside of my tree.

2. The Norse and Muslim trees contain a bunch of units I can't built, but the Muslim tree also has some buildings I need, like Aqueducts and Libraries. The Christians can build Monastaries for 160 shields but it does the same thing as the 80 shield Library. Before I waste time researching these Muslim techs, I'd like to know if it's possible to build them, or are they Muslim only like the units?

3. The Norse start with Beserkers which are beefed up with a defensive bombard of 6 now. The Muslim tribe in the south of Spain had Keshiks very early too. The best I can build at the very start is Archers, and after connecting Horses and Iron, I can build Horsemen and Swordsmen. I seem to be surrounded and outgunned. Am I missing something or are the Christian civs at a severe unit disadvantage?

4. I don't get the whole reverse capture the flag thing. What exactly am I supposed to do with that holy artifact?

5. I can't get a clear accounting of victory points from the 'pedia. I know you get points for building wonders and capturing cities but I don't know how much or if there is more.

6. I'm Religious but there don't seem to be any decent gov'ts to switch too. I haven't looked through the tech tree exhaustively. What's worth switching too?

and finally...

7. Any good strategy hints? I took the two single cities in Brittany right after REXxing and Burgundy just declared war so I'll probably take them out next. I'm about to finish the first wonder (forget the name) that is the combination, Heroic Epic, Pentagon and Theory of Evolution. Just like TOE, you get a unique boost to the tech that lets you build knights. I'm not sure what to pursue after that.

	20-09-2004 20:27									#2
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What level?

	20-09-2004 21:29									#3
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Monarch, I'm a wimp.

	21-09-2004 00:39									#4
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Reverse capture the flag works like this: Capture the city of Jerusalem and take your holy artifact there. When it is brought to the city you get victory points (1,000 or 10,000 I don't remember).

The three tech branches are designed to add flavor to the game. It predisposes the AI into researching along a certain branch (ie Muslim civs are more inclined to research Muslim techs). Research along your branch - trade for others if you really need them.

Startegies - don't fall into the trap of building up a strong infrastructure. Research techs to get military units. Forge alliances and rights of passage to be able to have access to attacking the holy land. Get your artifact there for the points, and if possible, steal another civs artifact and bring that one too. I believe that victory occurs at something like 30,000 points.

Check the victory status by clicking the "V" button on the side of the mini-map. Keep an eye on how many turns are left in the game and make sure your grand strategy can be implemented in the time remaining.

General advice to remember - the Conquest scenarios were designed to be different from a generic game. Read the scenario objectives carefully and start planning your strategy to take advantage (such as the holy artifacts) and never lose sight of what is required to win. Don't declare war before you are ready. If you have more primitive military units than your opponents, have ALOT of them!.

Don't get sidetracked.

	21-09-2004 02:26									#5
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Ah, so I can research those Muslim techs. Good. I have such good land that I can't imagine not building a few Aqueducts and Libraries.

Is it easier to win with victory points or domination? Conquest is out of the question given the size of the map and the number of players. Domination only requires 20% land and 20% population.

In retrospect it looks like I picked a bad civ since the Franks are very far away from Jerusalem and have crappy ships. It would take a ridiculuous number of ROPs to get an army there.

	21-09-2004 02:50									#6
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Yes, the Christian nations are designed to have a disadvantage early on. The Vikings and the Muslims both had their way with Europe for a while before Europe caught up.

	21-09-2004 04:38									#7
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quote: Originally posted by gunkulator I'm playing the Medieval Conquest for the first time as the Franks (yeah, I'm slow player) and I have a few questions: 1. There are clearly three tech trees: the Norse, the Christian and the Muslim, however it looks like I can research along any of them. Is this true? At the very least, it looks like I can't trade for techs outside of my tree. 2. The Norse and Muslim trees contain a bunch of units I can't built, but the Muslim tree also has some buildings I need, like Aqueducts and Libraries. The Christians can build Monastaries for 160 shields but it does the same thing as the 80 shield Library. Before I waste time researching these Muslim techs, I'd like to know if it's possible to build them, or are they Muslim only like the units? 3. The Norse start with Beserkers which are beefed up with a defensive bombard of 6 now. The Muslim tribe in the south of Spain had Keshiks very early too. The best I can build at the very start is Archers, and after connecting Horses and Iron, I can build Horsemen and Swordsmen. I seem to be surrounded and outgunned. Am I missing something or are the Christian civs at a severe unit disadvantage? 4. I don't get the whole reverse capture the flag thing. What exactly am I supposed to do with that holy artifact? 5. I can't get a clear accounting of victory points from the 'pedia. I know you get points for building wonders and capturing cities but I don't know how much or if there is more. 6. I'm Religious but there don't seem to be any decent gov'ts to switch too. I haven't looked through the tech tree exhaustively. What's worth switching too? and finally... 7. Any good strategy hints? I took the two single cities in Brittany right after REXxing and Burgundy just declared war so I'll probably take them out next. I'm about to finish the first wonder (forget the name) that is the combination, Heroic Epic, Pentagon and Theory of Evolution. Just like TOE, you get a unique boost to the tech that lets you build knights. I'm not sure what to pursue after that.

1. The entry level to each specific branch is non tradable. The others are fully tradable. Yes, any one can research along any of them. Entry cost of Norse tech = Entry tech of Lost Roman tech. Entry cost of Christain tech is about 50% more than above. There's nothing making them terriably expensive in fact all those entries techs are cheaper than Medicine.

As the Franks, your granted your first Christian specific tech upon entry to that era. (Same as Arabs granted Arab Learning upon entry to that era. Norse & Bryansanties start with their tech.) I presume that the non playable civs are not granted any free techs, but still have specific units within one branch and are encouraged to research it via the flavor.

2. No, in Middle Ages as any of the christian civs, you don't really need libaries or aquaducts or Hospitals. You need Knights on any victory path you chose. And also if you build the Holy Roman Empire Wonder, you'll be granted two free techs. You definately can't build the units. I think you can still build the city improvements, but check the editor. Your probably mostly wasting your time if your research along other branches, it's a long journey from France to Jersuelum.

Victory possibilites for Franks, easist to hardest:

A. Build a few naval transports and a lot of Knights and take your relic with you. Land near Rome and seize that relic, and get back on board the ships. Seize Jersuelum for one turn, returning both relics. Even if you lose Jersuelum the following turn, you have over 2/3rds the score needed right there, and can easily get the other 1/3rd fighting anybody weaker than you or perhaps just reseraching techs.

B. Skip the landing on Rome, but tripple the number of Knights and transports and in addition to taking Jersuleum for a turn, try to take as many Arab cities as you can. If you've brought enough Knights you may be able to take enough cities to make up for "only" bringing your own relic there. All Knights brought are on a suicide run and you may have trouble with the Arab invisible units and their 3 MP units.

C. Skip the crusades entirely and just concenrate on making France as large an empire as possible. This is the most difficult, because the Knight is only a 2 MP unit an in addition, the Berserkers are naval assult units.

3. You do start in a distint unit disadvantage as the Christians. You need the tech for Knights. 3rd one that's Christian as I recall. There's also a bunch of helpful techs allowing more units in the last era. (To everyone, except that the Arab units in their era are so much more useful to them.)

4. Load it onto a unit. Important: do not load that unit into an Army. It is okay however to first form an army and then load the aritificat onto the Army. Bring along plenty of attackers to take Jersuelum. It's okay if you raize it, you just need that tile clear of enemy units. Now move the unit that has the relic into Jersuelum.

5. That info can be found within the game. Hit F8. At the bottom, select the 2nd option and it will list how many points you have currently received from wonders, unit kills, taking cities, and techs. Also before you start, it's in the scenerio specific options. Can also be found in the editor under scenerio.

6. NOTHING! All civs start in Monarchy and your only alternative is depostism.

You only get the half price religious buildings benfit. And there are several Great Wonders that are Religious, if you want your GA before attacking someone with your Knights.

7. As the Franks, If you already have over 10K points, you are competely wasting your time fighting Burgundy unless your target is their relic in Rome. If you have over 20K points, you are competely wasting your time fighting any except Jersuelum itself. As to what to persude after Knights, probably the last Christian specific tech, allowing Crusaders and also a wonder that produces them every X turns for free. Also the tech allowing Court Houses is extremely useful, but you'll probably aquire that one and the following one before finishing the Holy Roman Empire. The other two aren't that useful, except that they are needed to enter the following era, and that's where your best defending units are located. There's also a host of wonders and structures that may be fun while building up your Knight force for the Crusade and also while your Crusade is on the way.

	21-09-2004 04:46									#8
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Victory Points. I went for Domination as an Arab civ and hit the 30K limit a few percentage points short of domination (land.) I had enough population.

No need for RoPs, just build enough crappy ships as transport. Don't declare war, just sneak attack the town. (Exception, if your forces have landed and the AI civ asks you to declare war or leave, declare war so your forces don't get automoved.) This is why you may want to wait until you have the tech for Swiss Merchantmen to go along with the Knights. Or you can gamble that the Arab civ holding Jersulum is at war with someone so they don't have Their 5-2-3 unit nearby. (or worse yet the Turks have their 6-3-3 unit there.)

quote: Originally posted by gunkulator Ah, so I can research those Muslim techs. Good. I have such good land that I can't imagine not building a few Aqueducts and Libraries. Is it easier to win with victory points or domination? Conquest is out of the question given the size of the map and the number of players. Domination only requires 20% land and 20% population. In retrospect it looks like I picked a bad civ since the Franks are very far away from Jerusalem and have crappy ships. It would take a ridiculuous number of ROPs to get an army there.

	21-09-2004 04:50									#9
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Note the Victory path for Vikings is somewhat similar:

Take over christian territory for better lands.
Build the Vicky Epic.
Seize enough relics that landing them would bring them over 30K.
Take lots of Berskers, sneak attack Jersuleum and land the relics.

Next turn, they almost assurely lose all those Berskers, but they have enough VPs for the win.

	22-09-2004 17:03									#10
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I've only played this conquest once myself, but I also played as the Franks on monarch level.

Pretty much right from the beginning, I started building lots of swordsmen. (They were the strongest units I could get and there really wasn't all that much else that made sense to build at that point.)

Pretty soon, my economy was lagging because my army was too large for my cities to support. So, I needed more cities. Not much space on which to build more cities of my own, so I decided it was time for a nice little old fashioned war of aggression to grab some land from an unsuspecting neighbor.

I picked the Castiles, and brought in the Muslim civ to their south as my ally. The French swordsmen swarmed across their borders and although the Castiles had done us no wrong at the time, we showed them no mercy and did not stop until they were utterly destroyed. The Muslims to the south failed to grab a single Castile city, but they did keep some of the Castile forces occupied so the French didn't have to fight them all.

With several new cities and the economy back on track, the French settled back and built for a while. During this period, the army was considerably strengthened and we gradually shifted our forces east, towards the borders of Burgundy...

After some time, the French economy was lagging once again. It was time for another land grab. This time, the French used wool and tar to get an alliance with Germany, and voila! The Burgundies were now being attacked from both east and west at the same time. Results: The Germans took a couple of cities in the east, the Franks took the rest. No more Burgundy and the Franks were now in possession of a second relic. The French army then proceeded to seal off Italy to prevent foreign settlers from colonising it after the collapse of the Burgundy empire, and we rapidly built some settlers of our own to fill in the gaps.

Then came another period of consolidation and growth while the treacherous French monarch secretly began plotting against his former ally, the Germans... This period of peaceful cultural expansion culminated in the completion of the Holy Roman Empire great wonder in Paris. At this point, France received two free tech advances and entered a golden age.

Now being the Holy Roman Empire, France started building knights like crazy and set out to conquer the German heretics.

Once again, the French brought in allies, forcing their enemies to fight on multiple fronts. This time, Germany was attacked by the Danes from the north, by the Poles from the east and by the Magyars from the southeast as well as by the French themselves from the west. In the face of such a massive onslaught, the German empire crumbled. Once again, the French, who had been well prepared for the campaign, claimed the bulk of the conquered land for themselves. They also succeeded in acquiring a third relic from the Germans.

Now one of the "top dogs" in medieval Europe, France began preparing for the final stage: the crusade. After right of passage agreements were signed with the Bulgars and the Byzantine Empire, a massive army of French knights set out, travelling by land towards the Holy Land.

On their arrival, they made some quite unreasonable demands to the Arabs who resided there and proceeded to attack when they were turned down.

A tremendous slaughter ensued.

The French lost several knights, but successfully conquered Jerusalem and returned all three relics there. They then tried to sue for peace, but the Arabs refused to acknowledge the French envoy. Insulted, the French monarch turned to the Byzantines and successfully negotiated an alliance with them. With the combinded might of France and the Byzantine Empire against them, the Arabs were pretty much screwed...

...but then the whole thing ended and I left for Mesoamerica...

I ended up with almost 50,000 victory points for that performance, and I had a lot of fun doing it. I guess I wasn't very nice though...

Last edited by Guardian on 23-09-2004 at 13:02

	22-09-2004 20:03									#11
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Completely agree on the Viking way to victory. The English one starts in their coastal capitol, any Viking Civ can grab it around turn 5. The French one is in Paris, pretty near to the coast again, grab it around turn 10. You'll need some time before you have researched Seafaring, to get enough boats for the crusade, but around turn 45 you should have deliverd 2 Relics. Kill stuff, VP victory around turn 55 on Deity is doable.

Heavily disagree on the Christian suggestion. Above Monarch, crusades aren't worth it. By the time you can reach the Holy Lands with Knights, Jerusalem will be beefed up with Pikes or even Swiss Mercs; 18+ on DG isn't unusual. The big problem you have is not the power to take Jerusalem, but the insane amounts of Curraghs you'd need - and Galleys come quite late. An exception is Britain, who starts with 2 Galleys and an Army; fill it with Swords ASAP, and grab Jerusalem before the Abbasids have Pikes. Sure, you'll need about 15k VPs more, but the headstart helps.
For any other Western Civ, Arabs, Constantinople, *do* build up Infra. Unit support really hurts. Markets are far away. Blacksmiths (100sp factories without pollution!) rule. Many Wonders are really useful; HRE obviously, but Bayeux (=Sun Tzu's; it's mostly one large continent except England/Norway/Sweden), Domesday Book (=Central Bank, but without Markets this one really shines) and Magna Charta ( free Courthouses everywhere + 3rd Palace!) are very strong as well. Contact everyone ASAP, the uber-Tech is Map Making; getting that first means something like all Gold/resources/ techs available! The Arabs and Christian don't play much different on the higher levels; you'll easily hit the 30k VPs long before you could reach Jerusalem anyway. Also, techs are worth a lot VPs; completing the tree gives 7945 VPs.

Random notes:
* In this Conquest, the AI is capable of winning if you don't fight enough; Turks, France, Abbassids and at foremost Byzantium are your competitors.
* Assassins are surprisingly strong, once the AI shows up with SoDs of SwissMercs/Longbows (or SMs/ Berserks). And, if you attack a city with them, picking a Longbow, you also get intelligence about the defenders.
* The late-game units are pretty nice.
* The non-playable Civs have neither traits, nor UUs or free Techs, only 2 Kings and no Markets in their capitals. Exceptions are Poland (REL/MIL, Western Church, Knights) and Castile (Knights). Be aware that Poland for about 50% of the time builds the HRE, definitely no weakling! Others candites are France and Germany, rarely England. Never seen Burgundy, but once the Turks!
* The AI will never research the opening tech of other flavors before the 3rd era, but occasionaly steal one.
* Libraries and Monasteries are identical except for the cost, but since all Civs but Norway/Sweden/Denmark and Turks (who start with Arab Learning anyway) are REL, it doesn't matter at all.
* Fear the Plague.
* Despotism can be worth it for Fatimids, they suffer a lot from the unit support early.

Last edited by Doc Tsiolkovski on 22-09-2004 at 20:19

	22-09-2004 23:58									#12
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quote: * Libraries and Monasteries are identical except for the cost, but since all Civs but Norway/Sweden/Denmark and Turks (who start with Arab Learning anyway) are REL, it doesn't matter at all.

D'oh! Should have realized this. So despite the fact that they increase science, Monasteries are a cheap build for religious civs.

A lot of good tips here. Thanks to all.

	23-09-2004 12:56									#13
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I can confirm that it did take quite some time to reach the Holy Land with French knights and that they encountered very heavy resistance, but since I attacked with about 30 - 40 knights and only needed to take two cities (Jerusalem itself and the one just north of it), it didn't really matter all that much.

Yes, it was massive overkill and yes, I could have won earlier and with much less effort. But it was fun!

	02-10-2004 12:47									#14
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I once did a over sea crusade with English late in game with galleys after building up a huge crusader army and sailing through the Pillars of Hercules and across the North Atlantic and Mediterranean to Palestine.

	04-10-2004 17:40									#15
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Did you stop to capture Malta?

	10-10-2004 11:55									#16
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I played as Byzantium. First I ReXed as much as I could. Then I invaded Bulgars in two successive wars, losing one war to the Abassids in the meantime.

By now my civ was large and my cities populus and my miltiary large, so I launched a successive series of wars against the Abassaids until they collapsed. And won the game on points.