21-09-2004 02:06									#1
	Cybernetic has gotten a bad rap (from what I read here) Put an end to popups!

I've recently played a few games on impossible with Cybernetic (and Telepathic, Unification, Rich Homeworld, Large Homeworld, Repulsive, Bad Spies). From what I gathered on here, cybernetic is a big handicap...

However, in every game I have played with it, I easily crush the computer. There is simply little they can do to overpower my ships since they regenerate so fast. It gets even more insane after I get the Automated Repair Unit; Shields are nearly a minor concern! Naturally I use Heavy Armor and whatever that better infrastructure add-on is called in my early ships. Latter I juse use Heavy Armor.

I find that with lasers I can take at least 1/4-1/3 of a Huge Galaxy, 8 players, before I need to stop and get better weapons. Depending on how fast I can manage it, sometimes I nearly take over the entire galaxy with just lasers (it depends on the start and so forth). By far this is the easiest race I have ever played.

I suppose it would be different against a human player though...any comments on that? I find that my main industrial strength comes from captured races. My telepathy allows me to assimilate them instantly, so I tend to just conquer new planets instead of making colony ships, at least for a while. Naturally if I manage to get Troop Pods (I have to steal them or some such, since Battle Pods are much more important), then latter with Transporters it is very powerful; Telepathy allows me to use captured ships in the same combat and Cybernetic allows me to repair those captured ships during combat.

Has anyone else ever worked with this much?

-Drachasor

	21-09-2004 03:11									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Cybernetic is good, and fun to use, in addition it is a slight + production pick, but Opportunity costwise it takes points that could be going to even more production, that is why it isn't viewed as all that great.

	21-09-2004 10:56									#3
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Cybernetic citizens eat 1/2 unit each of the production remaining after Pollution is subtracted.

Cybernetics therefore waste industry worse than all other races. You need Unification just to make a go of Cybernetic, but other Unification races have much stronger production.

Has Whoha tried Uni/Tel/RHW with other picks?

For example, Ship Attack or Ship Defence or Production bonuses, or Warlord, or Transdimensional, or Omniscient?

	21-09-2004 18:50									#4
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Well, in my game Cybernetic was so powerful because the self-healing ability allowed just one of my battleships to destroy a fleet of Psilon ships which were slightly ahead of me in most tech. It wouldn't have worked with any other picks because the 200+ damage each turn would have added up. (And I am talking about 1 of my battleships against about 10 Psilon Battleships). The main difference in tech was that I had Phasors at the time, and they only had Gravity Beams, otherwise they had an advantage due to their creativity.

So, at least in my games, Cybernetic made it so I didn't need to have as high a production, because I needed much fewer ships as they were nigh indestructable. I was pretty impressed by it. Also, if the Siliciods happen to be in a game, then you will get all of their planets from them in fairly short order, and you can ferry them around to use them as your work-force. In one game I played my race was confined to 2 systems, and I'd replace any new colonies with Silicoids ASAP. In any case, most of your planets won't have your race simply because you are conquering others so much.

Cybernetics just have much, much better ships than any other pick allows you, as far as I could tell.

-Drachasor

	21-09-2004 18:55									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Zoetrope Cybernetic citizens eat 1/2 unit each of the production remaining after Pollution is subtracted. Cybernetics therefore waste industry worse than all other races. You need Unification just to make a go of Cybernetic, but other Unification races have much stronger production. Has Whoha tried Uni/Tel/RHW with other picks? For example, Ship Attack or Ship Defence or Production bonuses, or Warlord, or Transdimensional, or Omniscient?

asdf

I like cybernetic/tol/+prod.

Cybernetic is a plus production pick, yes you eat industry, but you eat 1/2 food as well, so you move farmers over to industry, and you nearly always produce more industry then food.

	22-09-2004 23:24									#6
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Whoha:
"Cybernetic is good, and fun to use, in addition it is a slight + production pick"

Cybernetic is always a -1 prod pick. It seriously slows down entire race production and hurt very bad on begin of the game. U need 25 on food of 100 total man to feed cybernetic empire, while with normal race u need 34 or 23 (with soils or aqua). Yes u can release more man from food to prod or tech and even get cloners with tol race, however a -1 prod pick is a serious problem, especially on poor and upoor worlds. Creating hydro farms is even worse here, cos bios are the key tech to create bigger pop. Normal uni tol cybernetic has no prod bonus, so we have a situation when uni tol prod has 2 prod ! more then uni cybernetic. 2 prod for uni means 3 prod really, and with tol its even more due to no pollution. So damage to the economy of a tol race is even greater. Aqua race has little use of cybernetic too, cos this race has no food problems.

Drachasor:
"I've recently played a few games on impossible with Cybernetic (and Telepathic, Unification, Rich Homeworld, Large Homeworld, Repulsive, Bad Spies). From what I gathered on here, cybernetic is a big handicap..."

Against AI everything u take is a handicap, almoust no matter what it is.

One thing is good - the ships. But those ships still can be killed fast by emg or ion cannon or transporters weapons.

PK

	26-09-2004 19:52									#7
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The AI is dump when fighting battles

One other thing to remember is, besides the fact that human players are 100 times better than the AI and more "creative" with their tactics, your ships can easily be creamed even when cybernetic...

	02-10-2004 01:22									#8
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Lets see some numbers.

From my experience with cybernetic, you shouldn't colonize poor planets. Autofactories are necessary, but you can benefit a lot from heavy armor, so its hard to decide which one to get. All this talk has gotten me to thinking about what techs you get.

Do you get Deutrium or Tritanium? AutoFac or Heavy Armor? Battle Scanners or Tachyon Communications? Merculite Missiles or Pollution Processors? Computers or Research lab/SuperComp? Each of these techs are better for certain races. When I play a uni-tol-Warlord -shipdef -GC -repulsive , Tachyon communications is not a good choice. What I do is get auto factories, and tritanium, then put extended fuel tanks on all ships. If there is a free planet in the system I am attacking, I build a outpost so I can land troops. Otherwise I bomb. With these advantages I can support 2-3 times the ships as a unitol +prod, but I am at a disadvantage for the first ~50 turns. Whic brings me to my next point, but I am going to start a thread about it.

	02-10-2004 01:36									#9
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"From my experience with cybernetic, you shouldn't colonize poor planets. Autofactories are necessary, but you can benefit a lot from heavy armor, so its hard to decide which one to get. All this talk has gotten me to thinking about what techs you get. "

U can settle poor and upoor planets with cybernetic, but they wont grow fast for some time. They require extra cash help to expand.

"Do you get Deutrium or Tritanium?"

Trit on medium map, deuts on large.

"AutoFac or Heavy Armor?"

ALWAYS autofacts!

"Battle Scanners or Tachyon Communications?"

Always bscanners!


"Merculite Missiles or Pollution Processors? "

Mostly mercs.

"Computers or Research lab/SuperComp?"

labs!

".... With these advantages I can support 2-3 times the ships as a unitol +prod, but I am at a disadvantage for the first ~50 turns"

Ur on disadvantage whole game. More turns more chance tol prod will win.

PK

	06-10-2004 19:51									#10
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I did find an obscure way that cyber can be 'useful', but only against the AI.

When/If you get Evolutionary Genetics, and you have Lithovore, you can pick Cybernetic and get the 10 points back from lithovore. You can then unclick and and get back those 4 points. Viola, you can get +14 or more points on impossible and win, given that if you live to that stage you should be winning. Sure your race now is comparitively terrible, but you should have conquered some other races that should supplement yours.

According to me, here are the advantages of cybernetic:
Repair ships in combat
Less dependency on food (you can support 4 people with a hydro, and soil enrichment isn't as crucial)

Here are the disadvantages:
Eat production (rounded up, food is rounded up too)
Cost 4 points (which you could get +prod, or warlord)

	19-10-2004 00:26									#11
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Ok I did do a test. Because of time constraints, I did a small normal galaxy. 3 races, uni-tol +p, uni-tol warlord, and uni-tol-cyber. Because of the galaxy size, Warlord won. The warlord could support 2-3 times the ships. The max command points the uni-tol got was 10(from 5 planets). The warlord had 5 planets too, but slighty less population. Also the uni-tol found some natives. What killed the uni-tol was the invention of the battle scanner. The warlord had battlescanners + electronic computer + veteran crew, which translates to +115 to hit, and autofire continous lasers. So it must have been the ships I had the uni-tol build. I decided since the uni-tol probably couldn't hit as well, and considering that the warlord ships dodge easier, that going beam wasn't a good idea, so each ship had battlepods and tons of nukes. Unfortunately, uni-tol could only support ~4 cruisers + 1 battleship, and was attacked with 2 destroyers 3 cruisers 5 missile frigates and a battleship. Most of the missiles were shot down, and only the warlord's battle ship survived.

A word about the Cyber. Yes regeneration would be useful IF your opponent doesn't focus missiles and doesn't kill you in one salvo. As for the decreased food demand, I think going +1 food would be a more sensible plan, because the 1/2 food&prod you eat rounds up.

All in All, I think what mattered alot was the galaxy size. Maybe uni-tol would have done better if there were more room so they could get more starbases, and more planets so that taxes would be more effective to support a fleet.

	19-10-2004 00:51									#12
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Neither of those 3 races are usefull for small galaxy. Uni tol prod grows in power on medium+ maps, when it can fully use its ultimate prod. Also using uni tol prod -spy gives +20 defence to all ships. It acts better when warlord`s defences at veteran crew. Uni tol prod as the fastest race possible would build up in prod and tech as first and strike as first on its enemy. Sometimes in situation when 1 man has ion drive and other dont, will change the whole view of battle.

PK