21-09-2004 11:24									#1
	Ideas for the Western Front Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Now, with my initial version of the Vietnam War complete (I admit it needs editing) and other projects on hold for one reason or another, I'd like to try my hand at largely unfamiliar territory for me: the Second World War. It seems to be quite popular, and I've been feeling left out. I have planned a scenario focusing on the full scope of the Western Front of the European Theater from June 1940 through potentially into '46. It would cover the German invasion of France and the Low Countries, the Battle of Britain, potentially Operation Sealowe (if the Germans had their wits about them), failed Allied invasions like Dieppe, then D-Day till the crossing of the Rhine. I envision it being to the Western Front what Nemo's Red Front is to the Eastern one (well, maybe I'm not that good, but I can always dream). I plan to use northwesterneurope.mp, a neat little map of the ideal area, as a basis, which I've posted. Does anyone have any ideas for me?

Attachment: northwesterneurope.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	21-09-2004 12:26									#2
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For what side will it concepted to play?

	21-09-2004 12:28									#3
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With that map you'll to have to include a bit of eastern front, too...

Maybe use another map?

	21-09-2004 12:30									#4
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It could go either way and still be attractive, but that decision does have to be made, certainly. Since I, myself, prefer to play scenarios (and even hardcopy war board games) as the historical 'loser,' I'm somewhat biased towards the Germans. However, the Allies would make an interesting play too. I'm going to say tentatively an Axis slant unless ideas on this thread or elsewhere make the other option far more appealing.

	21-09-2004 12:31									#5
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Do you know of another good map? Does anyone?

	21-09-2004 12:32									#6
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How about creating a new map?

	21-09-2004 12:37									#7
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I'm afraid my map crafting skills frankly stink. I'd greatly appreciate, however, anyone who could create such a map. Ideally, it would include France, the British Isles, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Western Germany, and Northern Italy (and I suppose Switzerland would be in there too, though frankly I'd like to ignore it). If anyone could create such a map, I'd be most grateful.

	21-09-2004 19:56									#8
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It's a great idea, but this type of scenario has been done to death.

What would be fresh and interesting is a good WW2 scenario set in the Pacific.

It would be playable only as the US, starting June 1942, and the Americans would have to re-take all territory and defeat Japan.

It could utilize new graphics, random scenario selection, events, etc, etc...

	21-09-2004 22:00									#9
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I think that your idea is great. I certainly have been hoping for a scen to rival Red Front.

Before going further, it might be useful to try to analyze what makes RF great. First, it's the feeling of desperation on the part of the player during the summer of '41 when the German forces seem unstoppable. This is followed by the need to resist continued German attacks in '42 while attempting to build up Soviet strength. The pressure does not decrease until '43. Even so, as players became more familiar with the scen, it proved possible to finish it in '42 or '43. Colwyn's RF 1.5 modification of RF 1.4 is considerably tougher but, with the right strategy, can be completed by mid '44.

For me, the sense of desperation is greatest when defending with inadequate forces. Red Front achieves this because it deals only with Germany and the USSR so that events can be tailored to make sure that the Soviets have continually to fight against a numerically and technically superior enemy.


Returning to your proposed scen. If Britain is the protagonist, I can see how you could make '40 a desperate year for it, highlighted by the retreat to Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain and Seelowe. Similarly, anyone playing Germany would need to conquer France and attempt an invasion of Britain with very inadequate sea transport.

But how would you maintain the pressure on either Britain or Germany during '41-'43? The map is too small to include any aspects of the Mediterranean war that occupied both countries and maximally stretched their resources for all of '41 and '42. Greece, Crete, Malta, Gibraltar and North Africa could not be included. Similarly, a British player would not actually have to run convoys across a U-boat infested North Atlantic and a German would not have to deal with constant U-boat casualties.

In essence, where would there be a constant wastage of hard to replace units in '41, '42 and '43? For a British player, a raid on Dieppe or a strategic bombing campaign would make no sense unless you can design a way that bombing actually damages German production or destroys enemy units without itself suffering massive casualties.


You may want to take a look at the map in Harlan Thompson's WWII European Theater scen. Despite a number of serious bugs, it is an interesting treatment of the war, with Germany as the protagonist.

	21-09-2004 22:00									#10
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I do think a Pacific scenario would be a very good idea, and I have seen only a precious few versions of the theme (mind, one of my History of Asia, Part B scens was based on this theater, but was somewhat constrained by being part of that collection). However, the ones that do exist always focus on either playing the US or playing either. I think (and this is just me) that one from the Japanese perspective could be quite intriguing, especially given it would start as a cakewalk and then suddenly become very difficult to hold your territory and certainly expand. I might even start it as early as 1937, when Japan invaded China from Manchukuo. Does anyone have any ideas (or arguements for an American-based game)?

	21-09-2004 22:07									#11
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@AGRICOLA:
I just got your message as I was responding to Leonidas. I understand the difficulty of preoccupation of both forces between '41 and '43, which I didn't initially consider. I also see the problem of a far too limited map. Perhaps a map that included North Africa and Italy, as well as more of the Atlantic, would adequedately allow for these events in the gap period to be accounted for. I think it could be worked that way. BTW, any ideas on a Pacific scenario?

	21-09-2004 22:17									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Patine I do think a Pacific scenario would be a very good idea, and I have seen only a precious few versions of the theme (mind, one of my History of Asia, Part B scens was based on this theater, but was somewhat constrained by being part of that collection). However, the ones that do exist always focus on either playing the US or playing either. I think (and this is just me) that one from the Japanese perspective could be quite intriguing, especially given it would start as a cakewalk and then suddenly become very difficult to hold your territory and certainly expand. I might even start it as early as 1937, when Japan invaded China from Manchukuo. Does anyone have any ideas (or arguements for an American-based game)?

I think also playing as Japan would be a good idea too.

The main problem as I see it, is the AI. It has difficulty on the offence.

Playing as Japan would require the AI to come after you. Is the AI up to it?

On the other hand, if the player is playing as the USA, then the scenario designer could set the scenario to start at June/42, with Japan already in control of all historical islands, etc, etc. . .

The designer could set up events so that the USA player would have a tough time in naval battles, taking islands, etc.

These are just thoughts. I am sure with the wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum, others could help guide you on what to do.

	21-09-2004 23:11									#13
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@Leonidas:
I do certainly see the AI issues that could plague things; I've only lost to conquest by an AI in a scenario where they began with a lot and were given more by the events text and I began with much less. Offensive behavior, especially on a naval map, is unreliable. In such a case, I think maybe the emphasis on a Japan-centered scen in this case would be to keep expanding after June 1942, as they originally intended to do. This way, though not completely historical, would make the player suffer if they overextended themselves or wasted their expensive navy on unfavorable battles. What do you think?

@AGRICOLA:
Don't worry, BTW, I haven't forgotten about that Iraq War scenario you gave me such good ideas for. It's just on hold awaiting a few more news events to happen (like what happens after the elections, and who wins the US Presidential election).

	22-09-2004 02:25									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Patine @Leonidas: I do certainly see the AI issues that could plague things; I've only lost to conquest by an AI in a scenario where they began with a lot and were given more by the events text and I began with much less. Offensive behavior, especially on a naval map, is unreliable. In such a case, I think maybe the emphasis on a Japan-centered scen in this case would be to keep expanding after June 1942, as they originally intended to do. This way, though not completely historical, would make the player suffer if they overextended themselves or wasted their expensive navy on unfavorable battles. What do you think?

Whatever you plan to do keep it simple.

An over ambitious scenario will only frustrate you.

Personally, playing as Japan would be ideal, since it is the underdog and the US gets all the military production.

If you want to have the scenario playable as Japan, then I would start it shortly AFTER Pearl Harbour.

Require the player to obtain so many objectives within the time frame.

After June/42 you will want to give the USA LOTS of events and units over time, so that the player feels the full military might of the US. The US AI MUST be very aggressive and it MUST keep going after the Japanese player. Most of this can be done through events.

It could be setup similar to Nemo's Red Front. He used special techniques to get the spawning German units to take certain hexes.

I would also suggest using the random scenario technique as well.

There is a wealth of NEW naval unts available. And I am sure if you have any requests for more, there are plenty of people who will help you out.

	22-09-2004 02:36									#15
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I agree with that idea, given a pre-Pearl Harbor period would be remarkably easy for Japan and well-placed events could quicken the AI. A question is, how important of a role should China, the USSR, and the Commonwealth have in terms of what's available to them to build and develop and how many events affect them?

	22-09-2004 03:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Patine I agree with that idea, given a pre-Pearl Harbor period would be remarkably easy for Japan and well-placed events could quicken the AI. A question is, how important of a role should China, the USSR, and the Commonwealth have in terms of what's available to them to build and develop and how many events affect them?

These would be ideas that you could sketch out on a piece of paper.

I would use a pre-made Pacific map. Maybe even use one that's already in a scenario (with credit of course). This would give you most of the cities, islands, names, etc already for you.

You could then change things to your liking: use new terrain, cities, resources, units, etc. . .

There are some good websites on the net that can give you a basic run-down on the history of the Pacific War, and how you want to place units.

Eliminate what you don't want, then plan your events (you may need to use bat files ala red front).

Concentrate on Japan and the USA first.

Then Australia.

Then China

Then the USSR

	22-09-2004 06:55									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas Personally, playing as Japan would be ideal, since it is the underdog and the US gets all the military production. If you want to have the scenario playable as Japan, then I would start it shortly AFTER Pearl Harbour. Require the player to obtain so many objectives within the time frame.

YES! This has the proper desperate element to it. To win, Japan would have to retain and/or gain a set number of objective points. How it does it is up to the player who has the choice of using limited forces to defend or attack.

I've never felt that the US was in a truly desperate position because the Atlantic and Pacific protected the homeland from anything more than minor attacks.

	22-09-2004 08:08									#18
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I agree with you both. I think there's a good Pacific map right here on Apolyton in the archives (I need to check to be sure), and I'll need to comb the WWII-1979 units graphics showcase for some good units. Thanks for your help, and if you have further suggestions, just post them here on this now inappropriately named thread.

	22-09-2004 08:40									#19
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The decisive battles of the Pacific war were carrier battles. The Civ2 AI is totally incapable of using carriers or their aircraft. The only way this could be a meaningful scenario is if both Japan and the US/Britain were human players. And house rules would be needed - reduced aircraft carrying capacity for light carriers, and disallowing heavy planes from using carriers at all.

BTW, there have been a number of pretty good WWII Pacific scenarios: Don Melsom's 'East Wind- Rain', Harlan Thompson's 'WWII in the Pacific', and Darth Veda's unfinished 'Kyokujitsu'. None of them really worked properly for the above mentioned reasons.

Last edited by techumseh on 22-09-2004 at 08:45

	23-09-2004 13:42									#20
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BTW, does anyone know the model name of the mainline tanks used by the Japanese forces in East Asia and as infantry support in some Pacific islands? I have a graphic, just not the name.