22-09-2004 06:12									#1
	2137 End Turn and 2138 Discussion Support Apolyton

Current Status

Gaians
Pop 11
Social Engineering
frontier, planned, wealth (NEW), none

Hive
Pop 38
police state, planned, survival, none

Data Angels
Pop 8
frontier, simple, wealth, none

Spartans
Pop 10
frontier, planned, survival, none

Morgan
Cash on Hand 36


As it was previously agreed that we would establish the base on the coast in the SE, I built it (the computer named it Morgan Gravitronics) to see the Social Engineering options. Including the new base, they are:

(40, 20, 40) - 26 ECs, 29 Labs
(50, 0, 50) - 32 ECs, 40 Labs
(60, 0, 40) - 40 ECs, 28 Labs (before turning 4 workers into doctors, after turning the four workers into doctors it is 36 ECs and 25 Labs)

Running (40, 20, 40) gets rid of 4 drones (SSR, ZZT, Impaler Polymers, and Morgan Vulcanolgy). You have to ensure SSR and Morgan Vulcanolgy are working high energy squares or they will still have drones.

The loss of the energy is more than offset than the gain of 7 or 8 mins (depending upon how you allocate workers) from the additional workers.

Military Situation
1. The MW in the Southeast is on top of the monolith, two sqares distant from Morgan Gravitronics.

2. The Hive scout in the south is no longer visible.


Military Suggestions
1. Move our probe back north because:
I want to minimize our contact with Yang now;
I want it back in the fungus holding the choke point; and
With it limited to only one square movement (unless on a road or river) it is unlikely that it will be able to infiltrate before it is either killed or captured.

2. Let the scout in Morgan Gravitronics stay there and wait for the MW to come to it. Move the Vet scout toward Morgan Gravitronics (MG). Next turn if the MW moves toward MG, have it attack it. If it wins, great, more cash and morale upgrade. If it loses have the vet scout finish the attack next turn.

Other Thoughts/Concerns

1. We will need to build a defensive probe in MG. Maybe not now, but very soon. It is now open to infiltration.

2. We should build a cheap *-1-2 probe to go south.

3. How long do we want to gamble on delaying the building of the HGP? Every turn that we put it off makes our industrial strength stronger (because we get to use those crawlers for minerals to make more crawlers), but we incur the risk that someone else might build it first. Plus with the new bases we building we are going to get greater drone problems.

Will we build it this turn or next? I recommend no later than next turn.

4. We now have 8 crawlers and will have 9 by next turn.

Possible Rushes this Turn
With the 36 ECs on hand, assuming we are not doing the HGP this turn we can rush:

Morg Indus. SC needs 6
SSR CP needs 15
RFR CP needs 8
MG former or defensive probe needs 15

Because we only have 36ECs we can only do three of the above.


Mead

	22-09-2004 09:09									#2
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The armored defense team's zones of control will prevent incoming units from passing it. Could we just leave the armored defense team where it is now? I was under the impression we build the HGP in 2138 (next turn). Idealy, that will coincide with construction of a few bases. Which brings me around to we should rush both the CPs. Next turn we will rush the HGP, and it will require some energy to rush so we might have to wait. The MW penalty against bases should make a garrison (or former) sufficient defense.

Could you check out the secret projects? Does it tell the city a project is being built in? University mind cost is half off, so if the city building the HGP isn't the capital, a little buyout might be in order. If we do get war with the University, we can go fundy and steal their precious tech too. I know it's far fetched, but it's an idea.

So the Hive built 2 CPs this year. Right now they have the population of all the humans put together. I wonder how strong the chokepoint's defense will have to be...

	22-09-2004 11:49									#3
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Thanks for the summary, Mead.

Screenshot number 1:

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	22-09-2004 11:50									#4
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Screenshot 2:

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	22-09-2004 11:58									#5
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Psych was upped to 20%. SSR still required a doctor since it's growing this turn (which also means it can't rush a CP yet). Income is 26 ec/turn, so I made sure we had at least 10 ec left for rushing HGP next turn. Psych can go back to 0% next turn since HGP will take effect before any riots (due to being built in a city early in the base list).

I moved the synth defense team north toward the fungus chokepoint. Maybe we could leave it where it is... that might be a good spot for a base. I don't have a strong recommendation either way on this one.

The new base is Vander Eudaimonics, and it's doing a defense team (unarmored). RFR could start one next turn (it's on the sea, too).

I rehomed the scout to Van Eud... it'll save one min/turn at SSR (its former home).

Zak is still building HGP, but it doesn't give the base name until after completion. HGP is so central to GA booming that stealing it from Zak (if he beats us to it) is not so far-fetched.

We actually have nine crawlers this turn, not eight.

quote: it is unlikely that it will be able to infiltrate before it is either killed or captured

CwMead. The base we plan to build west of RFR (or possibly south at the chokepoint) could build a fast & cheap litigator.

IMPORTANT NOTE: The Gaians and the Angels both obtained Biogenetics this turn. The Gaians also obtained IA this turn, so they either stole or traded for one or both of those. Perhaps they've contacted the Angels and there is some "leapfrog" cooperation going on. If they infiltrated and stole it from us, I think we would have contact and it would say "informal truce" in the commlink window.

	22-09-2004 16:31									#6
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ok guys
next turn we build!
i don't want to delay it further.

Any idea about the "surpise" the gaians were talking about? could it be the tech?
what about a trade or infiltration with Yang?

Somebody already checked what Yang asks for contacts?

Greetz

	22-09-2004 17:19									#7
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Will losing the crawlers actually hurt? I would think we'd pretty close to recoup it off the psych and doctor savings.

-- CTO #endgame

	22-09-2004 18:57									#8
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It is possible the Gaians researched biogen and then cashed an artifact to get IA. If so, net nodes are expensive and the gaians used up most of their money. They took a long time on the turn before last, so that wouldn't surprise me.

Maybe the gaians were able to sneak through Hive territory in fungus with their mind worms. Or, maybe one of them found a Unity foil/transport. When we get Doc: Flex, we can see who has it. If they contacted each other by sea, they would be next to each other, and we'd be next to the spartans... Makes it important to see who is next door.

	22-09-2004 19:19									#9
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they could have popped a network node, and like I said, that ogre they have is good for 5 rows.

	22-09-2004 20:35									#10
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The Gaian surprise is probably their IA acquisition. The only other thing worth teasing all the other factions (IMO) would be starting an SP (which they didn't do). We weren't supposed to hear that comment anyway, so let's just not worry about it. Suffice it to say they didn't find a magic potion to catch up on crawler production.

Losing the crawlers for HGP will cost us 12 mins/turn. Getting back 2 psych per base, at 10 bases, is 20 energy (soon it'll be 12 bases 24 energy). If you subscribe to the idea that a mineral is worth the energy it takes to rush it, we don't quite recoup the crawlers, but it's close. Once we get to 18 bases, that's the equivalent of 36 psych, which more than makes up for the crawlers.

Speaking of 18 bases, we have nowhere to put them all right now. We'll need to build some units to explore the rest of our continent.

	22-09-2004 23:45									#11
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Since we are going to leave the armored defense team near the choke point, why not use it to help the CP go through the fungus? Namely, a unit won't bounce when moving onto a fungus square occupied by one of your units. Namely, we move our armored defense team up north one square. When our CP tries to move from one fungus square to another, it will be just one turn.

Once past the fungus, plant the CP one square SE of the defense team's current position. Rush a former, move it NW one square. Build a road, then forest, then sensor.

If we want to be really sneaky, if we get a war with hive soon, let them capture our base. It will be roiting, and ours, meaning mind control costs will be 1/4 of normal. We will also get any hive units adjacent to it. The Hive might even install a free perimeter defense for us when they move in. (I'm not sure about that) This will be AFTER we infilitrate and steal a tech from the base. Do we tech steal when you conquer a base in this game? I think we could get a great bargin on Hive garisons and infantry.



Mind control costs are calculated for a base with some constant, added to some value for every pop and every unit inside the city with an attack greater than or equal to its defense. All of the enemy's units next to the city are free of charge.

Last edited by arginine on 22-09-2004 at 23:51

	23-09-2004 08:25									#12
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Here's my speculation (based on facts and logic, but currently untestable) on what happened with the Angels' and Gaians' recent tech discoveries. The classic leap-frog technique:

Angels' 2136 turn: Angels send IA to the Gaians, who were scheduled to complete it in 2137 anyway. (This gives the Angels incentive to provide IA-- the Gaians would complete it with or without the Angels' help.)

Gaians' 2137 turn: Gaians accept IA from Angels just before they finish their research. They switch to Biogen, retaining all lab points, thus immediately finishing Biogen. They send Biogen to the Angels as repayment.

Angels' 2137 turn: They accept Biogen from Angels. (It's unlikely to be just coincidence that they obtained it the same year the Gaians obtained two techs.)

They both have to figure they can't compete with our raw energy output separately.

Meeting the Spartans and offering similar cooperation is imperative if we want to get to Env Econ and DAP before the Angels and Gaians. The Spartans will more likely be headed for App Phys, HEC, and DAP, instead of Env Econ. We should head toward Env Econ, so we can swap techs on the different branches. I'm not necessarily saying this takes precedence over Adap Econ and PEG, though.

In our diplomatic message to the Spartans (after we meet, of course), we should mention the Angel-Gaian tech swap of 2137. Being specific with evidence of that cooperation will help convince the Spartans there's an urgent need to cooperate.

*********

Other topics...

A Hive perimeter goes away when you conquer or probe a base away.

The fungus escort is a good idea. But we also want to continue blocking the Hive from putting a unit where we want to put a base. Maybe we could use a fast probe (which we want to build anyway) as the fungus escort? It may depend on the timing.

Keep in mind a war with the Hive would be expensive, given their population, our meager Synth armor, and our poor support. The Hive, with their good support and police ratings, probably already have quite an army waiting to attack whoever ticks them off. I suggest having our own army in place before ticking them off.

Last edited by jtsisyoda on 23-09-2004 at 08:31

	23-09-2004 09:39									#13
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That makes sense Yoda, the mini game has to have them all sobered up, andiD has all but won that game.

	24-09-2004 01:03									#14
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We can't conclude that the Angels and Gaians have contact with each other. The gaians would really want IA to start building crawlers for a tech. Maybe they had to go through a tech (biogen) to reach IA and they used an alien artifact for instant tech. 7 years is about how long we would expect the angels to take to research a tech.

We'll be able to see if anyone has 'doc: flex' in a few years.

I assume the Hive will declare war on us soon, maybe when we meet next. Ideally, the Hive will be at war with at least one other human faction as well, and we will have just one uber defendable city to defend, unless the Hive build a navy 'shudders'.

Are you sure about the perimeter defense dissappearing? I have captured a hive base before and gotten its perimeter defense, but that was a long time ago.

	24-09-2004 05:21									#15
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quote: Originally posted by arginine *** I assume the Hive will declare war on us soon, maybe when we meet next. Ideally, the Hive will be at war with at least one other human faction as well, and we will have just one uber defendable city to defend, unless the Hive build a navy 'shudders'. ***

Right now, and for at least the next decade or two, I see no profit in having a war with the Hive.

We should direct our efforts to build our empire, reach out and meet the other factions (for tech, infiltration and commerce), and maintain our security (probe defenses in the seaports).

A war, now, with the Hive would be an unnecessary expense and waste of resources.


Mead

	24-09-2004 07:16									#16
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I am of the opinion that the might Hive will declare war on the pathetic Morganite military when Yang feels like it. It is my experience that Yang will do so when he bumps into one of our units. Truces last from 15 to 20 years, and the one we bought is 16 years old now. I think it is a good idea to have some plans on what to do. Hopefully we will get some important military techs from the comps on the other continent in a decade.

I guess our best course of action will be to put up a city to the south and hope the Hive doesn't come looking for a war. The longer we wait the better prepared we can be. If we can buy Hive military units at rock bottom prices, instead of building them ourselves.

Last edited by arginine on 24-09-2004 at 08:37