24-09-2004 02:35									#91
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It seems its not common news right now, but it seems most of the big parties in Iraq right now don't want to compete with each other- so they are trying to draw one giant single united parlimentary list for Iraqi voters If this goes forward the legitimacy of that first election might be very suspect.

	24-09-2004 03:07									#92
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe So your positionis more the incompetence of the handling of Iraq as opposed to the actual expected "All is rosy" spin that is only to be expected in the election year, correct?

In the previous year before the election year, I don't think the Bush advisors have made it clear enough that they have serious problems, and that their current policy deicisions are not helping any.

So even in the previous year, Bush has shut his eyes, plugged his ears, and sung to himself a song over and over . . . . . . .

	24-09-2004 03:32									#93
	Re: Iraq is NOT a quagmire!!! Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat What's happening in Iraq is normal. It's called a war. In war, people die.

Uh, dood. Like, uh, according to your fearless leader, uh, the "major conflict" is long over, and we've "liberated" the Iraqi people, and this is "occupation" not war.

quote: Anybody that thinks that we can defeat terrorists and fight for our interests and not take casualties is living in lala land. We are probably going to suffer a whole lot more than 1000 deaths before the war on terror is over.

Anybody who thinks getting banged on in Iraq is either "defeating terrorists" or "fighting for our interests" is living in lala land.

quote: We better have the strength of will to persevere no matter how many casualties or we have already lossed.

Yeah, so if we lose a million, don't question our fearless leaders. They know best. Just suck it up. As long as it's someone else dying.

quote: I can guarantee the terrorists weon't give up after taking 1000 casualties. They will keep fighting because they believe in their cause.

So they're stupid fanatics who believe death is rewarded and they fight for ideological reasons, not as professionals. Are you saying we should emulate this sort of blind, ignorant fanatacism?

quote: Do we? Do we believe in what we are fighting for?

What exactly are we fighting for? A base for power projection in Iraq? A minimal holding action in Afghanistan?

quote: Are we willing to die for freedom?

(a) When did you sign up? No excuses, boyo.

(b) Our "freedom" isn't significantly threatened.

	24-09-2004 03:41									#94
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Second, we know exactly who are enemies are in the war on terror.

Brown people?

quote: Al Queda is a clear enemy.

I saw one just the other day. He was walking down the street in a uniform with big letters in English and Arabic saying "Al Qaeda member."

It's just a name, about as meaningful as "Thugees." We get some guy from a group affiliated with a group affiliated with a group founded by a guy who trained at a terrorist training camp run by a group affiliated with a group that has ties to Al Qaeda.

It's as clear as a egg on an iceshelf in the fog at night.

quote: The war on terror is not this vague mist that cannot be defined.

It can be defined, assuming you have leaders with the brains to make a cohesive definition, other than name-calling the "Axis of Evil." Meanwhile, we're too busy with the one that didn't have NBC capability to do anything serious with the one that does, and the one that's about to add the nuclear side.

	24-09-2004 03:42									#95
	Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Iraq is NOT a quagmire!!! Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat When Coalition forces kill and maim innocents, it is accidental. When terrorists kill innocents, it's deliberate. Big difference.

You could have a point if the perpetrator couldn't predict the consequences of its actions.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of civilian deaths are "selective accidentality", i.e. that the Coalition knows what the effects of its actions are likely going to be but still consider the tradeoff to be worthy of its cause.

Wake up, friend. When an helicopter shoots in a crowd in the middle of the street, when a missile is launched in a residential neighbourhood, you know what is going to happen.

	24-09-2004 05:47									#96
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Second, we know exactly who are enemies are in the war on terror. Brown people?

	24-09-2004 07:01									#97
	a gigantic bog Increase Your PM Length

Mass evil unleashed, and goodness sinks.

It is ok to try and assasinate evil men(I think), but fail and kill many thousands of innocents - this is terrorism.

Recent event:
An APC (Bradley-type) is knocked out. Soldiers inside wounded/knocked about escape. Crowd of civvies gather about, some cheering, some merely curious. Weopons of non-mass-destruction fire on location. Mass carnage.
Then statement broadcast by forces of 'goodness' saying that this (presumably harmless release of high explosive and steel with great speed) was to ensure safety of civvies.
This is called 'winning of hearts and minds'.

	24-09-2004 07:07									#98
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by MrFun In the previous year before the election year, I don't think the Bush advisors have made it clear enough that they have serious problems, and that their current policy deicisions are not helping any. So even in the previous year, Bush has shut his eyes, plugged his ears, and sung to himself a song over and over . . . . . . .

This would be 2003 your talking about. The year of the actual invasion which went off surprisingly easy and the rest of the fluid aftermath. You seriously think during that short period of time anyone really had a clue as to the situation on ground. (and yes I am talking the entirety of the year)

I think it would have been premature to assess the situation given a few months under the belt don't you?

So we have last year where it would have been premature to give a verdict. Then the election year where no-one (either side) is going to give the straight scoop.

What realistically are you expecting?

	24-09-2004 07:43									#99
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight I'm sure you'd just love to think that the US invasion is just making all those poor Iraqis into terrorists.

Why the conditional?

	24-09-2004 12:04									#100
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe This would be 2003 your talking about. The year of the actual invasion which went off surprisingly easy and the rest of the fluid aftermath. You seriously think during that short period of time anyone really had a clue as to the situation on ground. (and yes I am talking the entirety of the year) I think it would have been premature to assess the situation given a few months under the belt don't you? So we have last year where it would have been premature to give a verdict. Then the election year where no-one (either side) is going to give the straight scoop. What realistically are you expecting?

So it was reasonable for Bush to hop onto a carrier, and announce that everything was all hunky-dory?

Just because there were no major problems at the time, it was foolish for Bush and anyone else, to declare that it would all be downhill from that point on. No one has a crystal ball, but given the complexity of the situation after we intervened, it was naive to declare victory before the war ended (still has not ended).

	24-09-2004 18:01									#101
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Speaking of lala land, MtG, I saw a report tonight on CBS News about Zarqawi. IIRC the story correctly, apparently he has and has had since at least 2000, training camps and operations not only in Iraq, but into Chechnya and Europe, and quite a few other places as well. He was being funded by Saddam and may still be funded by Saddam, but the story linked his funding to Osama bin Laden.

Prior to our invasion, Zarqawi was conducting operations from Baghdad. Among these was the assassination of our ambassador to Jordan.

Today, he is in command of the Sunni resistance -- but he still conducts terror operations outside of Iraq and has cells all over Europe.

If you recall, Zarqawi as cited repeatedly as a reason for the invasion. The fight against him goes on. Iraq was and is a central front on the war on terror even if OBL is elsewhere.

	24-09-2004 21:22									#102
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Ned Speaking of lala land, MtG, I saw a report tonight on CBS News about Zarqawi. IIRC the story correctly, apparently he has and has had since at least 2000, training camps and operations not only in Iraq, but into Chechnya and Europe, and quite a few other places as well. He was being funded by Saddam and may still be funded by Saddam, but the story linked his funding to Osama bin Laden. Prior to our invasion, Zarqawi was conducting operations from Baghdad. Among these was the assassination of our ambassador to Jordan. Today, he is in command of the Sunni resistance -- but he still conducts terror operations outside of Iraq and has cells all over Europe. If you recall, Zarqawi as cited repeatedly as a reason for the invasion. The fight against him goes on. Iraq was and is a central front on the war on terror even if OBL is elsewhere.

Why didn't we request that Zarqawi be handed over to the U.S. if that was the case. Why don't we just invade all countries that have AQ members.

	24-09-2004 21:30									#103
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight I probably have a higher IQ than most the people on this board,

	24-09-2004 21:34									#104
	Remove this text

My IQ is a billion.

	24-09-2004 21:53									#105
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Pax Why didn't we request that Zarqawi be handed over to the U.S. if that was the case. Why don't we just invade all countries that have AQ members.

If you limit the list to those countries that were supporting Osama bin Laden or Zarqawi, we did.

	24-09-2004 22:08									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Ned If you limit the list to those countries that were supporting Osama bin Laden or Zarqawi, we did.

1. That's not what I said.
2. So you are saying that neither Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia governments have had any dealings whatsoever with AQ. The truth is you don't know.

	24-09-2004 22:15									#107
	Inflate your Upload Space

Iran, indeed, is a problem. Ditto Syria. Saudi Arbia and Pakistan are cooperating.

	24-09-2004 22:16									#108
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Then you are admitting that your previous statement is false? That's the first step.

	24-09-2004 22:22									#109
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are only partially co-operating. The most dangerous man in the world was pardoned by Mushariff and still lives free in Pakistan. SA frequently kills terror suspects rather than allow the FBI to interrogate them.

	24-09-2004 22:56									#110
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by MrFun So it was reasonable for Bush to hop onto a carrier, and announce that everything was all hunky-dory? Just because there were no major problems at the time, it was foolish for Bush and anyone else, to declare that it would all be downhill from that point on. No one has a crystal ball, but given the complexity of the situation after we intervened, it was naive to declare victory before the war ended (still has not ended).

Damn straight it was Ok as the war phase had ended (and exceedingly earlier than anyone could have foreseen) the occupation/rebuild phase was beginning.

Providing a congratulatory message for job well done is now considered bad form. Better file that one away with Miss Manners.

	24-09-2004 23:09									#111
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Damn straight it was Ok as the war phase had ended (and exceedingly earlier than anyone could have foreseen) the occupation/rebuild phase was beginning. Providing a congratulatory message for job well done is now considered bad form. Better file that one away with Miss Manners.

The war is not over -- you can call it by whatever other name you want to make yourself feel better, though.

	25-09-2004 00:10									#112
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The war is over when the Republicans say it's over. Don't ask questions or disagree because that's unpatriotic. If you're not a U.S. citizen and you ask questions then you're probably a terrorist.

	25-09-2004 00:26									#113
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Pax,

Not quite right. If a citizen in the US its unpatriotic.

If a citizen living outside the US most likely a traitor giving aid and comfort to AQ.

If a non US citizen definitely a terrorist.


For proper classification purposes where do you live?

	25-09-2004 00:30									#114
	Tired of ads?

Texas, but I'm going to mexico for the weekend.

	25-09-2004 00:32									#115
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So you're unpatriotic and you're going to become a traitor!

	25-09-2004 00:32									#116
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Part time traitor mostly unpatriotic is my guess. But you'ld likely have to go before the ultra conservative judgement panel for full villification err... verification.

	25-09-2004 02:39									#117
	Increase Your PM Length

MTGPWNZ

	25-09-2004 02:44									#118
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As this thread isn't really on the real issue anymore. And as I don't feel like starting a new thread for small news, i'm going to bring some 'news' to you:

It appears as a flight has been forced down in Maine again. This time the dangerous terrorist on the flight was Eric Hobsbawm. Obviously the risk of this 87 year old historian taking over the flight and crashing into some building was so great that the flight couldn't continue to its final destination.















(yes, it's a joke I found on a blog)

	25-09-2004 05:29									#119
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Pax Then you are admitting that your previous statement is false? That's the first step.

Let me confess my sins, dear confessor. I was wrong.

	25-09-2004 05:53									#120
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe Pax, Not quite right. If a citizen in the US its unpatriotic. If a citizen living outside the US most likely a traitor giving aid and comfort to AQ. If a non US citizen definitely a terrorist. For proper classification purposes where do you live?

So then you are insinuating that to ask questions is to be unpatriotic?