23-09-2004 20:10									#1
	Iraq is NOT a quagmire!!! Increase Your PM Length

What's happening in Iraq is normal. It's called a war. In war, people die.

Anybody that thinks that we can defeat terrorists and fight for our interests and not take casualties is living in lala land. We are probably going to suffer a whole lot more than 1000 deaths before the war on terror is over.

We better have the strength of will to persevere no matter how many casualties or we have already lossed. I can guarantee the terrorists weon't give up after taking 1000 casualties. They will keep fighting because they believe in their cause. Do we? Do we believe in what we are fighting for? Are we willing to die for freedom?

	23-09-2004 20:11									#2
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"Are we willing to die for freedom?"

Personally? No.

	23-09-2004 20:12									#3
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To add one thing: WW2 was a whole lot worse than Iraq. Nobody called WW2 a quagmire. So, what's up with this ridiculous notion that Iraq is a quagmire simply because we suffered some losses.

	23-09-2004 20:16									#4
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I don't think people equate quagmire with taking some personnel losses in combat.

	23-09-2004 20:16									#5
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Could it be that one of the reasons so many question this war, is because Bush and the advisors in his administration cannot even admit that there are serious problems in Iraq that they need to address?

	23-09-2004 20:18									#6
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quote: Could it be that one of the reasons so many question this war, is because Bush and the advisors in his administration cannot even admit that there are serious problems in Iraq that they need to address?

Or it could just be that Europe is still angry over losing it's lucrative business deals with Saddam and they can no longer skim money off the oil for food program. That's probably what it is.

	23-09-2004 20:20									#7
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Or it could just be that Europe is still angry over losing it's lucrative business deals with Saddam and they can no longer skim money off the oil for food program. That's probably what it is.

There must be a hell of alot of Europeans in the US, then.

	23-09-2004 20:21									#8
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Some European countries are just as guilty of corruption and deceit in regards to Iraq, as the Bush administration in United States is.

	23-09-2004 20:29									#9
	Re: Iraq is NOT a quagmire!!! Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat What's happening in Iraq is normal. It's called a war. In war, people die.

I thought peace was declared a year ago? The war's supposed to be over, they're just losing the peace, losing the support of Iraqi nationals and stirring up hatred, as well as doing an admittedly valuble job trying to keep the peace.

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Do we believe in what we are fighting for? Are we willing to die for freedom?

No and no. I don't believe that Bush's war against terrorism is the best way to solve this, and I'm not prepared to die for freedom. We're not going to change our laws because of Islamic fundamentalists, and IMHO, more will die fighting for freedom than will die in terror attacks if we don't. By a long, long way.

	23-09-2004 20:31									#10
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You don't have much freedom if you are dead.

	23-09-2004 20:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Or it could just be that Europe is still angry over losing it's lucrative business deals with Saddam and they can no longer skim money off the oil for food program. That's probably what it is.

And that would make US citizens against the war?

So if we invade Saudi Arabia, and remove the lucrative deals that the US has with them, that would be fine with the US?

	23-09-2004 20:32									#12
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Are you seriously comparing Iraq with WWII?

If you compares Saddam to Hitler, are you admitting that USA armed Hitler and then fight against him?

Bad news for you: Saddam is not Hitler. I'm not defendig him, but NOBODY is Hitler.

Saddam doesn't try to invade Europe, not even Israel. And if Kuwait were an orange producer in place of oil, the first Gulf War neves has been existed.

The argentinean dictators in the 70's has broken the human rights, the freedom. Has taked the lives of thousands of people. Has mounted concentration fields. But the US government never come to "fight for freedom". In fact, Kissinger come here a lot of times to elogiate they.

In a war, people is killed. But, was Iraq a war or an invasion?

Stop your Bush advertising, please.

	23-09-2004 20:33									#13
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Part of Iraq was a quagmire, but Saddam had it drained years ago.

	23-09-2004 20:36									#14
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BTW: I am prepared to figth and die for freedom. For my own freedom, and for the freedom of my own people. I wish all the people in the world were free, but if the "fight against terrorism" redices the freedom even in the US....

	23-09-2004 20:37									#15
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat To add one thing: WW2 was a whole lot worse than Iraq. Nobody called WW2 a quagmire. So, what's up with this ridiculous notion that Iraq is a quagmire simply because we suffered some losses.

The difference was that in WWII you faced conventional armmies of nation-states and once you defeated them, the war ended.

Iraq is a quagmire. There is little demonstrated effect on the terrorists and I suspect that some to many of the people fighting the Americans now are only doing so since they view them as an occupying force and would not necessarily be willing to engage in terrorist acts against civilians.

There is no discernible end to the Iraqi situation and this result was predictable from the start. The losses are not what makes Iraq a quagmire . .. its the inability to easily extract yourself from the muck

	23-09-2004 20:47									#16
	Re: Iraq is NOT a quagmire!!! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat What's happening in Iraq is normal. It's called a war. In war, people die. Anybody that thinks that we can defeat terrorists and fight for our interests and not take casualties is living in lala land. We are probably going to suffer a whole lot more than 1000 deaths before the war on terror is over. We better have the strength of will to persevere no matter how many casualties or we have already lossed. I can guarantee the terrorists weon't give up after taking 1000 casualties. They will keep fighting because they believe in their cause. Do we? Do we believe in what we are fighting for? Are we willing to die for freedom?

There were no terrorists in Iraq before the invasion. "War on terror" and Iraq should not be mentioned in the same sentence, they are two different things.

	23-09-2004 20:49									#17
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Those terrorists in Iraq are in Iraq from Iran and Syria. The others are Saddam loyalists. I'm sure you'd just love to think that the US invasion is just making all those poor Iraqis into terrorists.

	23-09-2004 20:51									#18
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It is a



because it was not planned this way. It was planned to cost minimal lost of life. Bush himself admitted he did not expect this kind of resistance. No one expected it.

definition: A difficult or precarious situation; a predicament.

I think it fits this bill. Because we don't know exactly how we are going to get out of this situation. Peace cannot be maintained without U.S. troops. We will be there for many, many years. Possibly decades.

	23-09-2004 20:55									#19
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Nobody called WW2 a quagmire.

I'm impressed, you know a lot.

	23-09-2004 21:04									#20
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quote: No one expected it.

Too bad I didn't save the newspapers from before the war. There would have been an awful lot of predictions of "winning the war but losing the peace", turning Iraq into an "unpacifiable quagmire", and "stirring a hornets' nest".

	23-09-2004 21:07									#21
	Re: Iraq is NOT a quagmire!!! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat What's happening in Iraq is normal. It's called a war. In war, people die.

Newsflash einstein- war can last a long time- the internal conflict in Colombia has been going on for 30 years...

quote: Anybody that thinks that we can defeat terrorists and fight for our interests and not take casualties is living in lala land. We are probably going to suffer a whole lot more than 1000 deaths before the war on terror is over.

A "war on terror" is as meaningless as a "war on drugs" when do you defeat "terror"? You can't answer that because there is no answer. We declared a war on drugs 15 years ago- have we won?

quote: We better have the strength of will to persevere no matter how many casualties or we have already lossed. I can guarantee the terrorists weon't give up after taking 1000 casualties. They will keep fighting because they believe in their cause. Do we? Do we believe in what we are fighting for? Are we willing to die for freedom?

Given that you have defined nothing but the most amourphous goals, without even naming a coherent enemy, guess what!? You can't win such a battle! God sakes, read some Suntzu, Clautszwitz, ANYTHING!!!

You can;t beat an enemy you don;t know, and its pretty damned clear you have 0 clues about our enemies except for some cartoon cutout in your mind.

	23-09-2004 21:10									#22
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat To add one thing: WW2 was a whole lot worse than Iraq. Nobody called WW2 a quagmire. So, what's up with this ridiculous notion that Iraq is a quagmire simply because we suffered some losses.

Does your willfull ignorance know no bounds?

I could not name the number of differences between this "war" and the Second World War in under 20,000 characters.

So I will simplify the answer- in WW2 it was obvious which State-actors were the revisionists powers that needed to be fought. You have no clue what the enemies today really are- so comparison is utterly absurd- beyond absurd-just utterly stupid.

	23-09-2004 21:12									#23
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ww2 comparisons are valid, but misused.

Remember, the war is over.

To accurately compare the two, you'd have to compare the deaths in germany and japan after the summer of 1945 to the deaths in Iraq after May of 2003.

	23-09-2004 21:13									#24
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quote: Does your willfull ignorance know no bounds?

Gepap calling someone stupid? No way! I always love it when someone who's IQ is probably not much higher than 110 calls other people stupid. (Yes, I'm calling you stupid, see how easy it is?)

	23-09-2004 21:16									#25
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Gepap calling someone stupid? No way! I always love it when someone who's IQ is probably not much higher than 110 calls other people stupid. (Yes, I'm calling you stupid, see how easy it is?)

Since when would having an above-average IQ be grounds for being called stupid?

	23-09-2004 21:17									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Dissident ww2 comparisons are valid, but misused. Remember, the war is over.

On this limited level, of the lessons of two state actors engaged in pitched battle, fine, but then, we might was well compare it to the Chango War, or the Russo-Japanese War, or the Austro-Prussian War, since all those comparisons would be equally as "valid" in this sense.

quote: To accurately compare the two, you'd have to compare the deaths in germany and japan after the summer of 1945 to the deaths in Iraq after May of 2003.

Again, on a limited basis that is also somewhat valid- then again, we might look at comparisons with the British admin. of Iraq in the early mandate period, or US admin. in the Philipinnes, including the likelyhood of democratic change in the future.

	23-09-2004 21:19									#27
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Gepap calling someone stupid? No way! I always love it when someone who's IQ is probably not much higher than 110 calls other people stupid. (Yes, I'm calling you stupid, see how easy it is?)

	23-09-2004 21:21									#28
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quote: Since when would having an above-average IQ be grounds for being called stupid?

My point is that no matter how smart you are there is always someone smarter out there. I probably have a higher IQ than most the people on this board, but I don't use it as an arguing point because I know there are people out there smarter than me and it shouldn't be used anyway. Gepap apparently never learned this lesson...like most liberals.

	23-09-2004 21:22									#29
	Re: Iraq is NOT a quagmire!!! Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat What's happening in Iraq is normal. It's called a war. In war, people die. Anybody that thinks that we can defeat terrorists and fight for our interests and not take casualties is living in lala land. We are probably going to suffer a whole lot more than 1000 deaths before the war on terror is over. We better have the strength of will to persevere no matter how many casualties or we have already lossed. I can guarantee the terrorists weon't give up after taking 1000 casualties. They will keep fighting because they believe in their cause. Do we? Do we believe in what we are fighting for? Are we willing to die for freedom?

How can you call the actions of the Iraqi's terrorism. If a foreign country invaded the U.S. and forced a regime change then would all who resisted the foreign power be labeled as terrorists. As of today Iraq has no proven connection to AQ or any group that was engaged in hostile acts against the U.S. in recent history. No WMD's. What possible reason could a logical human being still believe that the war in Iraq is a war on terror. Your whole statement is based on a falsehood.

	23-09-2004 21:26									#30
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight My point is that no matter how smart you are there is always someone smarter out there.

That doesn't make stupidity any less stupid.

I never would've figured you for a relativist.