25-09-2004 10:43									#1
	Poll, Foreign minister Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The Persians have offered us alliance should we desire to go to war against Sacajawacea.

We can either:

1. Accept the offer and besmirch our reputation while obtaining an alliance,

2. Ignore the offer.

Which course shall we pursue?

	25-09-2004 11:18									#2
	Remove this text

I just voted to accept - and then the thought struck me. Aren't we staying spotless in this game?

RJM at Sleeper's

	25-09-2004 11:37									#3
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Nope.

If we were, then we'd have no dilemma.

	25-09-2004 22:22									#4
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I checked old threads and found our self-imposed restrictions (which I have now "stuck" to the top). We did indeed agree to maintain a "spotless" reputation.

It's my fault we slipped from that. When I was playing the session that brought us to 1889, I wasn't thinking of our reputation when I attacked and captured Wood Lake from the Sioux. I should have taken the trouble to make them declare war on us first.

I guess we will have to try and maintain our "excellent" reputation.

How much of a reputation hit would we take if we agreed to fight the Sioux at the Persians' request? Or perhaps we should free ourselves of that particular restriction... Personally, I've never cared much about "reputation".

	26-09-2004 05:22									#5
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Oh no...

That's not good.

	27-09-2004 10:39									#6
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Please regard my previous vote for "accept" as a vote for "ignore".

Should we go back to the last "spotless" save and replay?

RJM at Sleeper's

	27-09-2004 11:20									#7
	Remove this text

That is an option. Or we could simply agree to not commit any more violations of our reputation.

Shall I start the poll?

In any case, I think that renders this poll invalid, since if we agreed to a spotless reputation, we shouldn't try to do further damage.

What are everyone's thoughts on this matter?

	27-09-2004 20:54									#8
	Support Apolyton

As I see it, our options are to replay the offending sessions, live with what we've got, or take steps to improve our reputation.

I don't think we should replay any sessions.

For now, I suggest trying to maintain our "excellent" reputation and going forward. And I don't see how we can go forward without without taking enemy cities. We really can't survive the "tech gap" we are laboring under.

I'm not sure of all the options we have for repairing our reputation. Time itself will have an effect, and capturing the Eiffel Tower (the Celts have it in Merthyr) would fix our problem.

Do we take a reputation hit for merely agreeing to aid the Persians in their war against the Sioux? Or perhaps we can provoke the Sioux into declaring war themselves...

	28-09-2004 00:52									#9
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We take a small hit.

Taking the Eiffel Tower would allow us to finish with a spotless reputation, and would be an option to acheive all of our victory conditions.

I'm in favour of playing on from where we are now, and not taking any further hits to our reputation, which would scuttle the alliance with the Persians, who are almost as weak as we.

	28-09-2004 01:47									#10
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OK then. How do we proceed? We need to take cities to gain techs and increase our power. We can't advance very much on our own just through research; we are far behind on that.

I rejoined the game because it appeared that your idea of using tanks to take Sioux cities would give us a chance to succeed (or at least compete).

We need a way to gain techs and production. I don't know how to do that other than by absorbing Sioux cities.

I suggest we take advantage of the Persian alliance, take the small hit in reputation by taking more Sioux cities, and go on from there. Reputation is a difficult item to control, and the least important thing to me in any individual game.

Most Equal Leader-of-the-Workers Paradise, Premier Ben Kenobi, I request that you post a poll to help us choose, by the socialist group will , how to proceed in this difficult time so as to advance our glorious Peoples' Revolution.

	28-09-2004 10:04									#11
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well we stuffed up a bit by accident. If we have a less than spotless rep already, I see no need to try to maintain that already technically failed condition.

There is a case to be made that it is the principle of the thing, that our prior transgression was not so bad because it was unintentional, but this time around if we worsen our rep whilst being fully aware of it we would be deliberately breaking our decisions. Many of those who voted on that decision at the start of the game are not here now, so it should fully be up to those of us still around to decide.

And remember too that it IS the principle of the thing. The basic principle behind this condition was us making this game challenging. I think it's challenging enough as it is, and we should not lose sleep over a single, minor condition being dropped so we actually DO have a challenge rather than a disaster.

	28-09-2004 10:06									#12
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As to this particular offer, I do not know ATM how much the Persians can do for us, but assumingw e may be able to get some tech out of the deal, we should go for it. And it's a lower rep hit than if we declared by ourselves, so we should go for it, provided it's not risking suicide.

	28-09-2004 11:42									#13
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I guess that since the original hit was accidental we don't need to replay, but I don't think we should deliberately worsen our reputation. It is relatively simple to provoke a war, although we do lose whatever the Persians might have offered us. As we capture cities, we will gradually pick up technologies.

I think our main problem at the moment is the space ship under construction. We need to do something about that as soon as we are in a position to do so.

RJM at Sleeper's

	28-09-2004 12:00									#14
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Er, would have voted for accept had my supervisor not interrupted at the crucial moment. I missed the poll.

	28-09-2004 13:28									#15
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What the Persians offer us is a way to backstab, plus the ability to request a tech from our allies.

They have many techs we don't have, and hopefully they would offer us a good one.

	28-09-2004 13:30									#16
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quote: I think our main problem at the moment is the space ship under construction. We need to do something about that as soon as we are in a position to do so.

Hence my suggestion of hitting the Egyptians, so that we take a city, and capture Nuclear Fission.

We already have rocketry, so this would permit us to nuke the capital.

Another thing we could do is to nuke the capital, and then try to raze the city with Apollos, so that once the wonder gets destroyed, this buys us time to build up a decent army.

	28-09-2004 13:33									#17
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If we keep provoking the siou then that buys us time to build all our coastal fortresses, and defense for the colonies.

We are not far from being able to protect them, which is a sea change from earlier.

So many options right now.

	28-09-2004 19:01									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ben Kenobi Another thing we could do is to nuke the capital, and then try to raze the city with Apollos, so that once the wonder gets destroyed, this buys us time to build up a decent army.

How does razing Apollo's help? Does that somehow mean Spacecraft cannot be built?

	28-09-2004 21:20									#19
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What was the decision as to reputation status??

Monk

	28-09-2004 23:33									#20
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quote: How does razing Apollo's help? Does that somehow mean Spacecraft cannot be built?

That's the deal.

	28-09-2004 23:34									#21
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quote: What was the decision as to reputation status??

None made. I want to give everyone a chance to say their piece, since there are good arguments both ways.

	29-09-2004 00:02									#22
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Well, since I was not here when the initial decision was made to maintain a spotless rep, I don't want to offend anyone; but, I can't get too worked up about that question at this stage of the game. As I see it, the only way our reputation may have an impact is at the margins where being offered an alliance might not happen if we were 'dispicable.'

My vote would be to forget about any earlier restraints and do whatever was necessary to pull this thing out. It is not like we don't have enough of a handicap already.

Monk

	29-09-2004 03:36									#23
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Yes, what Monk said! I am prepared to abandon concerns about our reputation.