23-09-1999 22:26									#1
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I realize that this topic is less than essential at this point in the project development, but I think that it at least needs to be broached (I couldn't find any references to it by searching...set me straight if it already has been).

As I've been fiddling with the graphics options before us, I started thinking about other elements of the game that could best be described as "chrome". Has anyone discussed that addition of sound effects and/or music to Clash? While it's not essential, it CAN make or break a game by adding to the appeal of the game. I'm not experienced in any way with programming customized sound effects (formats, etc), but I'm assuming that there are packages out there that will fairly easily allow someone to design and implement some sound effects for the game. Any comments, suggestions, cheap shots, or volunteers on this topic?

	24-09-1999 00:24									#2
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Hi Paul,

Just a suggestion for the music:I thought the one in Civ2 was very good, it wasn't too loud(and therefore didn't disturb concentration) and remained very close to the subject: Civilizations. I think it really contributed to the overall feel of the game. Something of the same kind in Clash would be greatly appreciated.

	24-09-1999 07:20									#3
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Well, I can look into the programming aspects... I'm sure java can do .wav files. But I will have to rely on you guys for thoughts on types of sounds we'd want to enable 'cause I turn all that stuff off

	24-09-1999 19:02									#4
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yeah sounds really get you into a game if they are done right. However if they are just plain bad like the civ2 sounds they have to be turned off. Like the civ2 sounds are long, that is horrible. Sounds should be short and simple. No composite sounds. I suggest that most of the sounds be simple interface sounds, like clicks. When you hit a button on the interface a muted (not sharp and staticey) click would be heard. Maybe sounds for unit death. I would avoid going with music unless there is someone skilled at composing. Bad music detracts from the game.

Sound will help people get into the game but it is not essential because people have time to read text screens (as opposed to say SC, where you cannot hope to play without sound because you rely on it for a lot information)
So I wouldn't suggest too many event sounds, after all they have other ways to find out about things

	25-09-1999 01:23									#5
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Yea, but we shouln't have anything too simple like those Atari type sounds. *shivers* I couldn't stand several hours of "beeps"

	25-09-1999 01:47									#6
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Mark: I agree with you about being able turn off the music. An endless loop of Ode to Joy would put me over the edge! :P

I was thinking more along the lines of maybe some music (perhaps something prerecorded, but not copywrited) that we could use on the intro screen to give the game a more professional, polished look - and that's what we need (especially in demos) to generate interest in the project. Also, some basic sounds (like the clicks described above) as well as some sound effects for battles and natural disasters might add something. I realize that many people ignore or turn those effects off, but some people (like me) prefer to hear their tanks crushing the enemy or hear their swords clanging against the enemy's armor. A game as complex as this one shouldn't be silent, as that would seem, well, incomplete in my opinion. If you are in the group that hates sound FX, just turn it off

Is there anyone out there with experience with implementing sounds in games (including creating original effects)? This would be a great "Duke" position for someone that doesn't have a lot of time, but has a great imagination.

	25-09-1999 02:52									#7
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No I wasn't suggesting low quality sounds or beeps, just a certain style of sound use. Quieter sounds that don't ever dominate. You want the play to feel that he is doing something or that he is changing interface modes.

The civ2 sounds were about the worst possible that I could imagine. They were long, loud, and high pitched. Each time you attacked you were "treated" to a sound clip that lasted over a second. That is way too long. I'm thinking something along the lines of a third of a second.

Besides unit commands I think some interface commands are good. Like whenever you go into a nonstandard interface mode. So taking civ as an example you would hear a quiet sound whenever you went into the city screen, you would not hear one when leaving the city screen to go back to the main map.

Perhaps some scroll bars should have been given sounds (like the one that cycles you through cities) but not others (like the one that lists your city improvements).

As for particular battle sounds I suggest no speech, no sounds like a plane taking off, no air raid sirens, none of that stuff that you would hear in civ2. Primative warriors should have 1, maybe two sword slashes per sound you shouldn't hear the battle cries, the whinny of the horses, etc... man just thinking about this reminds me how bad civ2 is. Someone across the hall frequently plays it with the sound on and I keep hearing the chariot sound, that thing is like 3 seconds long.

	25-09-1999 05:08									#8
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Glak: You pretty much hit it on the head as to what I was thinking of... Sounds that are short and sweet, but that add some flavor to the game. The are many sounds (you listed a few from civ2 - or even in civ) that get really annoying after a while. All the same, I get bored pretty quickly with a silent game. Sounds to indicate "rare" events (maybe "once in a game" sounds) can really add to the atmosphere, while those stupid 3-second long sounds that occur 20 times each turn detract from it(remember the multi-note jingle you were treated to in the original civ every time you killed an enemy unit?)

And like I said earlier - if you hate the sounds, just shut them off or turn your speakers down Since the guy across the hall leaves the sound on, apparently he must like it - otherwise he'd shut it off too. I just thought that it would be a good idea to add a little sound to cater those that actually DO like it - especially since it's so easy to add to Clash. Just my $.02

	29-09-1999 11:25									#9
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I have a friend who could do the music. He does this proffesionally, along with his brother. He said he'd be willing to help if you needed him to.

	02-10-1999 23:24									#10
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If he's interested, I say enlist his services! While sound (including music for an opening theme perhaps) isn't essential, it will really add to a polished, professional look IMHO as long as it doesn't smack of that cheesy early IBM "Shareware" sound If he's a professional, I'm sure we don't have to worry about that!

	03-10-1999 06:40									#11
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Lord God Jinnai:

Yeah, sounds fantastic! I'm with Paul that an opening theme would be a great place to start. Please tell your friend we're interested!

	14-10-1999 03:56									#12
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Hi

I'm new to this area of apolyton, and think the game sounds as though it will be great. And speaking of sounds (pardon the pun)I'd be glad to help if no one is really doing this at the moment. I'm not a professional, but this is a major hobby of mine (for about 10 years)and I do have all of the equipment necessary for such a project (digital audio recording, sampling, physical modeling synthesis etc.) So if there's any interest in starting up this side of things, then count me in.

And good luck to everyone involved in this project

	17-10-1999 01:35									#13
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Quick Mark! A volunteer! Round him up!

But seriously, I agree that sound is an important component to achieving a "professional" result. And I agree with Paul, that those who don't care for them can always turn them off. Having said that (and noting that I'm no expert), could we perhaps offer the gamer a "sound menu", something like this:

In-Game Music - On/Off
Battle sounds - On/Off
Civilian sounds - On/Off
Rare Event sounds - On/Off

If it's too complex, off to the waste can with it! But otherwise it gives more choices to those who want a customized experience.

	17-10-1999 01:52									#14
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About the music, I think(hope, if not to difficult) there should be music for each individual civ. Music that pertains to that civ. Music people associate with certain countries or cultures. This music should of course be soft on the ears and could possibly change over the ages(for certain civs). This would help capture the feeling that Im the Chinese or Japanese and since Im American and live in America its hard to get that feeling.

Also since there is little to distiguish(sp?) civs apart, this might help somewhat.

Daniel
[This message has been edited by Yakopepper (edited October 16, 1999).]

	19-10-1999 22:12									#15
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I'd like to see sounds in an industry standard format, MP3's and Waves, unless someone has a better idea. This would mean that (assuming player customization ala CTP and Civ II) that players would be able to add their own music for custom scenarios.

	15-05-2000 09:16									#16
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I like Yakopeppers idea. Has anybody played Master Of Orion II? The different races there all have their own theme music, which the player instantly knows that it means "we are a peaceful/warmongering/sneaky/etc. race". It would be great to have something like that in Clash. Maybe different musics depending on the other civ's government form? Happy for democracy, dark for dictatorship? And also symbolizing their attitude towards you?

	15-05-2000 08:00									#17
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I think we've talked about that b4. And that's a good idea. I know were going to do something like that for techs, ie have similarly related techs look differnt and have differnt information depending on the type of civ u r. These will in essence be the same, but look differnt.

As far as happy/dark for government types, they should be more as to what is favorable to your type of government. If your a hard-liner monarchist who hates republics, why would you get cheerful music for that and darker music for other monarchies? Also it could have to do with the civ's reputation vs. your own. That's probably better.
[This message has been edited by Lord God Jinnai (edited May 14, 2000).]

	15-05-2000 13:06									#18
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I think there should be a lot to do with your economy, obviously during the great depresion it wasn't quite happy, even though everyone was basicly politicaly free. It should really have to do with how your people are feeling, along with how your military is doing (meaning the people might be happy from propoganda but that doesn't mean the military is really doing well) I think the social and political models should be mostly tied in on this, this could be another clue for a ruler to know that she/he is hated or adored. This may use up some CPU though...

	21-05-2000 15:58									#19
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Its been a while I'm afraid but I'm back.

I like the music ideas as a gauge of happiness/ diplomatic status depending what screen your on. Depending on whether or not natural disasters are still to be implemented they too could be taken into consideration. So too could climate. If for example you take your Roman settler to Iceland he might not be too happy about it. Or a Hawain would only ever be sad if there was a volcano errupting. Music could do alot to add atmosphere that the neccessarily limited graphics cannot.

	30-05-2000 19:06									#20
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Are there any aspiring musicians out there that would like to try tackling this?

	17-12-2000 04:04									#21
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bump

Twinge, some simple interface and combat sounds would be good. The demo covers the Roman Empire; right now there is only one task force type unit for land and one naval unit, so we would only need a land and a sea combat sound. Maybe a sound for different models, like money when you change some economic policy.

	17-12-2000 10:46									#22
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Twinge,

How about a sound when u move your units?
Marching for land and waves slamming into the hull for naval... though this may get annoying when trying to march from say, Rome to Spain, or sail from Rome to London... I dunno

-A sound for when u form or dismantle a TF (taskforce or Army, if u didn't know that one ). Possibly a different sound for each type of TF u can form: Naval, Combined, or Land

-sound for when u gain a tech, and when one increases

-for when u are raided

Just a list of ideas, feel free to use them or ignore them.

P.S. Music would be nice too

	17-12-2000 10:54									#23
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Heh. Nice to hear from someone other than Mike and Richard

Well, I'm not very good with sound, I might be able to come up with something, but we'll see. When I did mention it, I was kinda looking twords music first; again, while not even remotely an expert on it, I've had some experience and have a nice easy to use program to make midis. (Anvil Studios, freeware, can be found on download.com if interested) ..... Well, I'd need some idea of what kind of music your looking for too.

	31-12-2000 06:51									#25
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Well, you have to be careful with that. I got Civ2: ToT (Why I've been gone a while) for Christmas, and certain sounds that keep getting repeated become really annoying quick and I turn off the sound sometimes... we'll have to keep it fresh, maybe have quite a few for similar or the same activity, depending on things such as time era, tech advances, user choice, etc.

	20-03-2001 07:11									#26
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There is a site that could help us a lot: www.findsounds.com

I liked this one.

	24-03-2001 00:16									#27
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Some civ 2 sounds where good (Imho) like the musketeers and artilery, others where bad, like the dragoon...
Sounds doesn't have to be short to be good, but they have to be done so that they dont get boring to listen at (that cavalry trumpet was a really, really bad sound).
I was just stopping by this forum and since I am gamer (and civ2 scenario designer) I thought I could atleast share what I think
[This message has been edited by Henrik (edited March 23, 2001).]

	24-03-2001 06:02									#28
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Hi Henrik:

Please feel free to comment where ever the topic is of interest to you! We need as many outside appraisals of our ideas, and fresh looks at what we are doing, as possible. We're a fairly small group, and don't claim to have a lock on wisdom . Glad you've come by to share your thoughts with us.

	25-03-2001 06:13									#29
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Nice site, Richard.

Is there a specific file type that we're planning to use, or is that open to discussion still?

	10-04-2001 07:20									#30
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Hi guys,

I bought a cd today with 6000+ sound effects, and we can use them for sounds in Clash - Free of charge!! I even recognized a few from some games I previously downloaded off the Internet, such as DopeWars.

Most of them are very good quality, but some aren't. Also as was previously discussed most of the sounds are very short, so they won't be too overpowering.

The cd contains nearly any sound you can imagine. So if we can formulate a list of sounds we'd like to have, I can send them Mark's way and see if we can't get some sound FX in Clash pretty soon.

P.S. they are in .wav format