25-09-2004 20:27									#1
	2138 End Turn and 2139 Discussion Enter the AD-FREE zone

Turn's here. I'll play in a few hours.

	25-09-2004 20:46									#2
	2138 End Turn and 2139 Discussion Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I downloaded and looked at the turn.

I didn't look at it too much.

What I see no one has built any SPs yet.

This year we build the HGP in Impaler Polymers.

We move the *-1-1 probe north.



Hive continues to grow - 44.

Where do we plant the CPs?
Do we want to plant the Impaler Polymer this turn, or wait until next year when we can put adjacent the pod and the mineral bonus.

The benefit of doing that is a safe pod pop (with the chance of a getting 'half an SP on wheels'.) in a very productive location. The downside is that we have to wait a year until the CP is a base.
The benefits of a safe pod pop in an excellent location outweigh the delay of one turn.

Because we want to launch a probe foil ASAP we should put the Money Valley CP on the coast, and rush build a *1-1 defensive Probe followed by the probe foil (we should have the tech in a couple of years).

I want to plant the RFR CP directly on the chokepoint ASAP (even though that means we won't have enough time to build a sensor there first).


We should have enough cash to rush (with using 6 crawlers) the HGP and the CP in SSR.

Mead

	25-09-2004 20:48									#3
	Re: 2138 End Turn and 2139 Discussion Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda Turn's here. I'll play in a few hours.

Sorry, jtisyoda I started to compose my post before you posted your thread.

Mead

	25-09-2004 20:56									#4
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I can join the two threads if you want?

	25-09-2004 21:38									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Drogue I can join the two threads if you want?

Please join them.

Thanks Drogue.


Mead

	25-09-2004 22:33									#6
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Done

	25-09-2004 22:35									#7
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I played the turn and made notes before reading Mead's post. I'll post my notes as is, and we can sort it out from there. Thanks for joining the threads, Drogue.

Attachment: acdg3-morgans-2138_endturn.zip
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	25-09-2004 22:36									#8
	Remove this text

Populations:

G: 11
H: 44
A: 9
M: 11
S: 11

Tech/turn: 43
Tech accumulated: 125
Tech cost: 203
Flex in two years

EC/turn: 38

We have four crawlers left after insta-building HGP. Next turn, Mor Ind and Money V can switch to crawlers-- they're doing another "head fake" by starting WP and ME. SSR and Imp Pol can also start crawlers next turn. That will give us more than enough for PTS. I haven't estimated a completion time yet, but quite a few can be rushed next turn.

Van Eud built a defense attorney (unarmored). RFR is starting on an armored version, since it doesn't have scout protection. Van Eud has started a former, but could easily switch to a Litigation Yacht in a couple years.

Mead Metal and Morgan Mussels founded. This caused b-drones all over the place. Good thing we're building HGP so we don't have to worry about it. Mor Ind still needs a doctor, though, since HGP will be built after its drones are calculated. Next turn we can put him back to work.

Mead Metal is doing a scout since we haven't even explored in that base's radius yet. The base we found in the NW soon could build another one to go the opposite direction. Edit: It can also pop that pod.

The CP out of RFR should probably just go one square SW and found a base in 2140. (I could've tried going there this turn with a 1 in 3 chance, but messed that up... oops.)

The CP out of SSR next turn can found a base at that NW spot in 2141.

The two formers directly north of Morgan Mussels can wait for the road to finish to the NE, go along it, then NW along the river, and start a forest on the min bonus.

Attachment: 2138_map.jpg
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Last edited by jtsisyoda on 25-09-2004 at 22:59

	25-09-2004 22:37									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

And the F4 screen...

	25-09-2004 22:39									#10
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Oops, something went wrong attaching that file...

Attachment: 2138_f4.jpg
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	25-09-2004 22:55									#11
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I did try moving the defense team north, but it bounced off the fungus.

We can redirect the CP that came out of RFR if necessary. Putting a base on the chokepoint sooner rather than later is probably a good idea. It may starve down to two from lack of nutrients, but that's still better than all other factions' new bases. (The PTS will probably be built by the time it would get down there in 2144 or so.)

Since Imp Pol can start on a crawler, it probably wouldn't affect the timetable for PTS if Morg Muss built a defense team instead. Do you guys think I should do that switch before ending the turn and sending it to the Spartans?

	25-09-2004 23:04									#12
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,

Last edited by arginine on 25-09-2004 at 23:23

	25-09-2004 23:20									#13
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I'd say that defense teams can wait until the projects have been grabed, but since we have 4 crawlers, 3 bases will be building crawlers, and the 3 SP bases can be converted over to crawlers, I can't really object.

If we really want to try for the PTS, we should decide now where we are going to build the crawlers and where we want the PTS to go NOW. I would REALLY like for the PTS to be in a city a decent distance from Impaler polymers for lower vulnerability to possible planet buster attacks in the future.

In the long term, I wonder if is possible to use another faction to grow our bases? I am dreaming of loaning some bases and the Asthetic Virtures to the PKs for some population growth. Also, when capturing a Hive base, one can keep the perimeter defense.

Last edited by arginine on 26-09-2004 at 00:11

	25-09-2004 23:50									#14
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If possible, I'd like for the PTS to be built in Mead Metal or the spot now lacking a base to minimize PB vulnerability. I feel the new base site will be a better site, but that base will come up shortly before the PTS is built and have 10 excess minerals that will be difficult to use.

This could work out if we have the bases building SPs and Mead Metal (currently building a scout) each build a crawler. We rush the two bases currently building crawlers. We should move / rehome our current crawlers to help building the 4 bases building the final crawlers. Morgan Mussels might as well wait around for doc: flex to build a cheap foil.

I don't think the HGP will kick in until the turn after it is built, so I'd throw in some psych to be safe.

I'm done talking now.

Last edited by arginine on 26-09-2004 at 00:14

	26-09-2004 01:58									#15
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The drone control effects of building Rec Coms, CP's, HGP, etc. are well documented and tested. The base building the HGP will get the benefit of HGP before riots are calculated for that base. (It's the same way with the CP's we've built, if you look at previous turns.) All cities later in the base list will also get the benefit of HGP.

Here's the sequence:
Starvation calculation (yes/no)
Mineral calculation and construction
Population growth
Riot/Golden Age calculation (or end of riot/GA)

Thus, you can build a facility or CP to prevent riots just in time. But you can't build a rec tank (or Tree Farm, etc.) to prevent starvation.

It goes through that entire sequence for the first base on your list, then again for the second base, etc. (IWO, it doesn't do all starvation calculations for all bases, then mineral calcs for all bases, etc.)

One thing about this sequence that's confusing is how a Children's Creche fits in. It won't induce a +6 growth pop-boom the same turn it's built (IIRC). It's sort of like a GA in that respect, i.e., there's a one-turn delay. However, it will do traditional growth if you have, say, 18 nutrients in a size one city when you would otherwise need 20 to grow without the Creche.

I still haven't tested whether you get the benefit of an E-Bank or Node on that first turn. IOW, is energy collection before or after minerals and construction? If we look back at the exact lab numbers just before and after we built our Node, we could answer that.

I'm sorry, you might be right about keeping the Hive perimeter. I haven't tried it in a while. I might be thinking of when the faction colors switch in multiplayer and it looks like you have Hive bases without perimeters.

	26-09-2004 02:41									#16
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quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda The drone control effects of building Rec Coms, CP's, HGP, etc. are well documented and tested. The base building the HGP will get the benefit of HGP before riots are calculated for that base. (It's the same way with the CP's we've built, if you look at previous turns.) All cities later in the base list will also get the benefit of HGP. Here's the sequence: Starvation calculation (yes/no) Mineral calculation and construction Population growth Riot/Golden Age calculation (or end of riot/GA) Thus, you can build a facility or CP to prevent riots just in time. But you can't build a rec tank (or Tree Farm, etc.) to prevent starvation. It goes through that entire sequence for the first base on your list, then again for the second base, etc. (IWO, it doesn't do all starvation calculations for all bases, then mineral calcs for all bases, etc.) ***

Thanks, good info, I agree with you.

quote: I'm sorry, you might be right about keeping the Hive perimeter. I haven't tried it in a while. I might be thinking of when the faction colors switch in multiplayer and it looks like you have Hive bases without perimeters.

I think he is right about the perimeter defense. If I remember correctly, usually, it stays in place when I capture a hive base, but sometimes it is lost when I capture it.


Mead

	26-09-2004 13:03									#17
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By the time Planet Busters come around, PTS won't be that critical, so I don't think it's necessary to place it anywhere special. Any inland base like Mor Ind, Imp Pol, or SSR would probably be fine (and faster). For any other projects like WP, VW, etc., it would be good to spread them out.

I'm going to leave the extra crawler in production. You never know when you'll have to switch to a scout to fend off worms or whatever. There's no reason to walk a tight rope.

Loaning Lal some cities so he could grow them to 16 or 18 would be very interesting. I've never tried anything like that. Lal would have to be more friendly than Yang has been, though.

	28-09-2004 10:08									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Would anyone else care to chime in on where to send the southern CP? The two choices are two squares west of RFR, or down at the chokepoint with the synth def attorney. Provide your reasoning, too, if you don't mind.

In another thread, Drogue reminded us that trading bases with the AI is against the rules. Gifting the cities with the intention of taking them back wouldn't be allowed either.

I agree rehoming crawlers to bases still building crawlers for PTS is a good idea. Next turn the only one not assisting with another crawler will be the one on Mt. Drogue.

Last edited by jtsisyoda on 28-09-2004 at 10:13

	29-09-2004 00:08									#19
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quote: Originally posted by jtsisyoda Would anyone else care to chime in on where to send the southern CP? The two choices are two squares west of RFR, or down at the chokepoint with the synth def attorney. Provide your reasoning, too, if you don't mind. In another thread, Drogue reminded us that trading bases with the AI is against the rules. Gifting the cities with the intention of taking them back wouldn't be allowed either. I agree rehoming crawlers to bases still building crawlers for PTS is a good idea. Next turn the only one not assisting with another crawler will be the one on Mt. Drogue.

Let me clarify my thoughts about placing the CP on the chock point.

PLUSES
I like having it there because it should keep Yang from building more bases closer to us (plus it helps our land grabbing).

MINUSES
I like having that fungus barrier between Yang and us.

Placing a base south of the fungus barrier means it will be more likely that we will have more contact with Yang.


OVERALL
If we place the base on the chockpoint it will need to be well defended so Yang would not seek to attack it. This could be expensive. I am thinking, at least 1 probe, well armoured infantry, perimeter, children's creche, at least one (preferably 2 or more) sensor nearby, command center. We could road one square south and pack some rovers in the base to strike out and then return to the base each turn. If we do plant the base on the chokepoint and harden it well, it will give us a good launching pad for probe actions and a future invasion of the Hive should one promise to be profitable.

We should also plan on linking it with the rest of our empire.


Mead

	29-09-2004 04:42									#20
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In the event the base does it captured, we can mind control it back at half cost (quarter cost if in rebellion) in addition to any military units in or adjacent to it, and we might get to keep a free perimeter defense (a 100 EC value).

I do have to agree about a lower chance of encountering Yang.

I would like to get some forest there to slowly remove the fungus. Hopefully the small base there and its terraformer will expand the forest and plop up the sensor array. Also, it will help reduce Yang's land grabbing.

	29-09-2004 07:15									#21
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2 west of RFR will be a good base site for putting a few rover garrisons later, but we'll need the former power to make it useful. Note the absence of rainy squares.

-- CTO #endgame

	29-09-2004 07:31									#22
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Although I would like a base on the chokepoint as soon as we can get a CP there, I recognize that it will take several turns for the CP that just came out of RFR to get down to the chokepoint.

For now, I recommend:

Building a base on the river with that CP this turn to get it productive making ECs and units (crawlers and formers) now. We can't wait several turns for it to make a base.

Once we either get the PTS or one of our southwesterly bases grows beyond pop 1 make a CP and send it to establish a base on the chokepoint. By then, we might have a former in place to start a road towards the chockpoint, and maybe even a sensor completed on the build site.

Conclusion:
Build a base, this turn, either where the CP is now, or no more than 2 river squares away from where the CP is now.

Mead