15-08-2000 09:28									#31
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I looked at Manurein's old demographic sub-model. It is a decent procedural model, but it deasn't have the flexibility of the cohort system. It does have the advantage of values that are easy to define, but I think that this system should be easy enough to work with as it is.

F_Smith:

I don't understand the complex stuff like enumeration and I probably won't for a while. So, let me try something simpler, like the method for determining the population of one of the later cohorts:

The cohorts after the first one have their creation method defined as aging from the previous cohort. Their population is the population of the previous cohort times the mortality of the previous cohort.

In the Cohort class:

public int aging(PreviousElement)
{
return previous.getPopulation * previous.getMortality
}

Could you correct that syntax?

By the way, I hope to start Java programming soon after I get my new computer next week. By then, I hope to know enough to try creating some simple tech model components on my own.

	18-08-2000 07:36									#32
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I haven't forgotten about this. I'm in the middle of studying the Java textbook so I can discuss the programming more intellegently.

	18-08-2000 07:49									#33
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Richard:

To avoid confusing you (I'm sure there is a typo), when F_Smith wrote:

code:

public void doAging()     {
    return getNumberOfIndividuals() * getMortality();     
}

code:

public void doAging()     {
    number_of_individuals = getNumberOfIndividuals() * getMortality();     
}

	18-08-2000 07:58									#34
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Oops:

Mark is exactly right.

Sorry.

That's why God invented the compiler!

	17-09-2000 06:28									#35
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I now know enough Java to understand F_Smith's code and say that it looks good.

Is there anything else I need to do before the model gets coded?

	17-09-2000 06:57									#36
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Um, We don't Need any of this for demo 5. IMO getting the tech model going is Much more important. Unless you think this is a good 'training' exercise that's much more constrained than tech and so has value that way.

	17-09-2000 07:48									#38
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Yep I'm aware of that inconsistency.

I think it is because F_Smith believes that to do the game right you need to OO model the real world. I believe that you simply need to OO model the 'game' world. I characterize the game world as an internally consistent view of the world in the game. The game world does not necessarily match the real world. In this example, I consider modeling just undifferentiated people as acceptatble for a game. He (and I think you) don't.

Whether the model is needed in the long run or not, I don't think its needed right now...

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited September 16, 2000).]

	18-09-2000 08:04									#39
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This is actually because of a disagreement between Mark and I about the basic code infrastructure/architecture.

The problem is, my experience in building similar data systems suggests to me that the existing architecture in the Demo 4 code would not work for a full game. It was not scalable, for a variety of reasons -- in my opinion.

Mark disagrees. The decision on the final code is his.

	18-09-2000 19:27									#40
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F_Smith: What kind of population model did you already code? How does it work?

	20-09-2000 03:25									#42
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Actually it will be implemented. The default five year cohorts will have reproduction and labor attributes based on social and economic conditions. So in some socities cohort #4 (15-19) will be considered adults and will be married, working, etc. But in other societies they will be considered minors or students.

But cohorts 1 and 2 (0-9) will never reproduce and will always be considered minors. This prevents the population from doubling every few years with no immigration like it does in some games.

	22-09-2000 01:30									#43
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F_Smith, could you tell me about the population model that is currently in the code?

	22-09-2000 02:15									#44
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Richard:

It's the 'ethnic group' object hierarchy we're discussing in the other threads. Should I also repeat it here?

	22-09-2000 05:27									#45
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I thought that the "population model" meant the system that defines aging, reproduction, and demographics. Do you have anything like that in there already?

This model has nothing to do with defining EG's. It just takes input from the social model to determine birthrates and economic potential. It can be run once per EG as an option, but it doesn't define their actions or status.
[This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited September 21, 2000).]

	22-09-2000 09:40									#46
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Richard:

Right now,

[*]the basic ethnic group objects are defined and coded. Altho more methods will need to be added to support the added functionality of 'birthrates' and such.

[*]the 'turnhandlers' for ethnic groups are defined and coded. There's a 'one year' method that currently only processes the EGs 'ideology' decisions. But this is where all the methods/procedures you're talking about will go.
[/list]

So the 'framework' for the population model is in place. But no numbers have been filled in.

	23-09-2000 09:03									#47
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So we don't need the cohort objects and their functionality for Demo 5. The "population model" that is so vital bears no relation to the population model I wrote. Same name, different system. We can worry about this thing later.

	22-09-2000 22:27									#48
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Richard:

Actually, I am of the opinion that your system should be rolled into the game code before any 'higher level' functions are. The entire game will rest on the population. So we should flesh out the 'ethnic group' object as fully as we can before moving on.

That's why I'm not moving on with the beast -- I'm going to have to make much of this up myself (and I know you don't want that!). For the govt model alone, demographics info is going to be needed . . .

	23-09-2000 00:26									#49
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Oh No! Anything but that!

Okay F_Smith, what do you need from this model? I'll see what I can work in.



Note to Mark: I am not willingly going over your head. As is plainly evidenced by the post above, my offer to work on this model before Demo 5 was made under extreme duress

	23-09-2000 00:42									#50
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I, too, would rather wait for Mark to decide if this is the direction he wants to move next.

But just so you can be thinking ahead, in case Mark agrees (or for whenever we do move this direction), we'll need to flesh out the 'ethnic group' object and turnhandler.

So first make as comprehensive as possible a list of 'behaviors' we will want the EG to have (aging, reproduction, etc). We'll define blank methods in the EG and turnhandler to support those functions, and determine when they get run.

Then, as the last step, we'll flesh out and add equations to those methods.

	23-09-2000 01:18									#51
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Sure, go for it. If I don't agree, F_Smith will spend so much time fixating and posting that this 'Vital' thing hasn't been done that it is probably a wash in time anyway... I Still don't understand why this is needed now, but I will just have to cope with lack of understanding. And it probably would be good for learning purposes to start on something relatively simple.

Just note, I have Not bought into all this complexity you (F_Smith) are proposing as anything other than optional. I'll have more to say about that subject in my post on overall project direction due tomorrow.

[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited September 22, 2000).]

	24-09-2000 23:29									#52
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So what is the decision? Should I be working on including this model?

	24-09-2000 23:33									#53
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Okay, I think that was a bug in the forum. Mark's reply on this topic was not listed until after I posted. Neither my browser nor the library computer's browser showed that this topic had a second page.

	24-09-2000 23:54									#54
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Hi Richard:

Sorry, I missed your simplified system way back when. I support the simplified system, although I would prefer to see a single cohort as the default. Combining male and female. Again it is an abstraction, but I don't think we need the extra complexity.

Like F_Smith says, for scenarios the multi-cohort version could be cool.

	27-09-2000 12:29									#55
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Richard:

I need you to work up 'test cases' for coding the pop model.

A 'test case' is a quick explanation of desired functionality. Something like

[*]People's production and consumption need to be calculated once per year.

[*]Production is calculated by dividing pi by the phase of the moon.

[*]Blah blah, bla bla bla.
[/list]

Does that explain it?

I will code according to the test cases. When all test cases run, then the coding for the model is finished. Then, later, when we add other functionality, if we make any changes in this part we run these test cases again -- just to make sure we don't screw something up by accident.

	28-09-2000 09:20									#56
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Sorry, double post.
[This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited September 27, 2000).]

	28-09-2000 09:21									#57
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I'll give the Population Glossary before talking about test cases so we know what all the words mean:

Population Model: The system that determines how many people are in every mapsquare, and what the demographics of the civilization are.

Demographics: General term for attributes of the population such as age, fitness for military duty, fitness for economic labor, birthrates, and mortality rates. There are four options for the presentation of this data to the player:

• Once per civ
  
• Once per civEG
  
• Once per province
  
• Once per prEG
  

	28-09-2000 05:55									#58
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F_Smith: Test Case Expert? Uh, okay, thanks, I guess. I never wrote one before; I was sort of guessing what to put down.

Mark: That functionality is already listed in the model, so I figured it would get programmed anyway. I didn't want to nag and accidently start another fracas I'll repeat it here for convenience:

Multi-cohort:

These [demographic] equations are run at intervals based on turn length and cohort size. They are run every C years in the game timeline, where C is the cohort size. If the cohort size was five years and the turn length was twenty years, the equations would be run four times per turn. If the game switched to one month turns, the equations would be run once every sixty turns.

Single Cohort:

The model is recalculated once per turn, regardless of turn length.

The Mortality and Reproduction Percentage are based on a time period of one year.

The turn time is taken into account by multiplying the Mortality and Reproduction Percentage figures by the turn length in years.

And here is some other timing info:

When people die every turn and the [multi-cohort] model is not run every turn, we could run into problems. A possible solution is as follows:

The [demographic] calculations run in the model are assumed to be a summation of the previous C years. Therefore, we can assume that the deaths happened in the middle of the C year time span.

The total number of deaths per cohort is calculated. Half of these deaths are taken out before the calculations, the model runs, and the other half are taken out of the new cohorts.

For more details, refer to the Detailed Model and the Simplified Model.

	28-09-2000 07:35									#59
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Richard:

I just emphasized the time thing as a test case since almost all the models will need this, and I wanted to raise awareness about it.

quote: Economic Potential defines the average labor that one person in the cohort will provide. An economic potential of 1 is defined to be the labor that a healthy adult working X hours a week can provide. The economic potential of a cohort is altered mainly by social attitudes, work hours, and health. It does not include unemployment, but it does include people who do not want to work. In the equations section, I will explain how this number produces the labor L available in a square. (Mark, I need you to decide what X should be after you go over the rest this model. I think it should be somewhere around 40)