12-04-2001 03:28									#91
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

are there files/models already done that i can study? if not i will extract all demands from people from this pretty huge thread and make up something. I still think it has to be simple, cause it should run every turn and speed is often a concern when using java. Maybe later it would be nice to make that kingdom micromanagement model.

	12-04-2001 23:52									#93
	Remove this text

PAIN.. i've tried to compile this thread into THE answer but that ain't easy :-(. I think we should at least have 3 cohorts, namely young, working and old. This is only for the reproduction races. I think manufacturing races should have to build certain industrial structures to build themselves, this will cost a some economic power, but then again every produced "person" is directly capable of doing work/military service so if we balance carefully it would be a nice addition to the gameplay. The most difficult is the derived creation. Their growth should be related to others races death. And i have still no idea about the transition from cohort to cohort, what kind of formula shoud be used there?

I think that the population model should be run at province level, but i still don't know how large a province is.

things i certainly want to use are:

-growth is somehow related to food production
-of course there's the disease model {duhh}

	13-04-2001 00:01									#94
	Support Apolyton

i accidentally posted before i was finished..

-i think we should run the model at province level but i don't know how complicated the other models are so i will have a look at that. i don't want the population model to be extremely light or heavy in comparison to the other models. (hey.. i'm repeating myself, sorry)
-the derived/production races don't need an % workforce cause i think they'll only create usable persons.
-the reproduction race would have a varieting % workforce, but i think we can relate that directly to the social model.
-to save memory/speed i think we can work out the classes only for provinces, cause generally in a certain area the differences between the squares will be pretty small.

questions remaining:
-what other elements affect growth? i think there are lots of variables but i don't know all the clash options so i think you will come up with some.

	13-04-2001 00:12									#95
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

additions:

-i think it's not fair to implement gender, cause the reproduction race would then become extremly vulnerable compared to the other races
-recruiting military troops should be taken into account. The people recruited should be removed from the population, and be added again when the unit disbands.
-Because the military provides their own supply's there would be no relation to the land the came from.
-This influences growth but i think we can calculate without using gender. The population part of the province could contain a value that is made higher when man/women are not equally removed and would slowly stabilize back.
-This value could also be used to recalculate the %-age of workforce. (if only this world had always been 100% emancipated this model would've been a lot easier)

	13-04-2001 00:14									#96
	Inflate your Upload Space

last reply in this series:

please give me feedback suggestions, i tried to make something not too simple, and not too complex at the same time.

	13-04-2001 00:51									#97
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Hi 4VAlien:

Thanks for getting this area going again!

I think you should do the architecture on a map square level. I think F_Smith's comments long ago that we should push data storage down to the lowest possible level is correct here. For now, to make life easier, I think you should do the entire pop model calculations at the map square level also. The economic model is at the square level for now, and it uses at least 20x as much processing power as pop is likely to. So you might as well do it the easy way. If we need to agregate up later it should not be difficult with good design. For now we are following the rule: "Don't optimize prematurely". You can see further ideas about the extreme programming (XP) philosophy we're following in the coding discussion thread if you're interested.

I won't say anything about non-human population because there are so many things I need to spend time on before considering that... So I won't comment, but reserve the right to criticize later . Hopefully Richard, who put them in, can discuss that with you.

"-to save memory/speed i think we can work out the classes only for provinces, cause generally in a certain area the differences between the squares will be pretty small."

Probably correct, but why don't you try it at the square level first for simplicity as I outlined above.

"-recruiting military troops should be taken into account. The people recruited should be removed from the population, and be added again when the unit disbands. "

Agree!

I agree with much of what you say. I will wait for Richard to give you some of the further details you're looking for, because he's much more familiar with the model. If there are any big problems you need info on fast, just let me know, and I'll do my best to come up with something.

Thanks again for taking this on!

	13-04-2001 03:19									#98
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

ok i will go for square based calculation and humans only, but i would like to have some assitance in modeling the classes , cause i also have to deal with the ethnic groups etc.. which i don't completely understand yet

	13-04-2001 05:01									#99
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Personally I'd say just hold off on the classes and ethnic groups for now. If you want, you could put placeholders in. The reason I'm suggesting you not do those yet is that Gary is going to hook up the govt/social code this weekend (I hope! ) and so he will then know about the architecture of that stuff. Gary is a pro java coder, and can help in figuring out the right archtiecture to use with the population model. I could make guesses, but they wouldn't be well-informed guesses.

	13-04-2001 10:51									#100
	Suffering from ads?

One comment about age: If you cut down into young/old/working, how do you consider the lengthening of life? People currently work till they are around 60 year old, but they used to be old much earlier in the Middle Ages, because of disease, eating, crippling... Will it be simple to change the working/old proportion based on social/tech progress? Another question about young: If they study more, they start working later, so the same question goes: how do you map this to the social/tech?

	13-04-2001 16:55									#102
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Laurent:

I think the age for the cohort boundaries should just slide as the society changes. On educating the young, I think that will work out ok with the present econ system. Education costs work (services) both for the educators and the educated. So if your young are being highly educated, they are of necessity not doing any other type of labor.

Gary:

My point was that soon you'd have probably enough experience with the architecture surrounding classes and ethnic groups that you could be able to help as an advisor in specing the population model architecture. You'll undoubtedly be there long before you completly wrap up the social model.

Thanks for the overview. A lot of your post could IMO be usefully crossposted to the coding discussion. Your approach description is valuable as it is, and of course the list facilitators you mention should be known to the other programmers, who don't check all the threads.

We could even start a soapbox thread for you to tell us non-pros how it should be done when you see something that doesn't work.


[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited April 13, 2001).]

	13-04-2001 17:35									#104
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

after reading the info at the following link
http://www.krellinst.org/~winther/A...tion/index.html

i made up some code that gives a nice model of population. I tried to make my model match the graphs of population in america as much as possible. It currently matches for about 350 years !!! (1650-2000)I tested scalability and at 15x the calculation was 12% off the original. I'm afraid the difference will be larger over a longer period, and will have a look at that. I'm still thinking about the cohorts...

	13-04-2001 17:53									#105
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Alien4V:

I'm glad to hear you're making progress! But we can't say much until we know what exactly Is the model you coded? There are several different things on that page. US population growth was and is heavily influenced by immigration. Is that included?
[This message has been edited by Mark_Everson (edited April 13, 2001).]

	13-04-2001 18:59									#106
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

i put my current progress on the following page including my code (not really much yet). I'm very happy that you mentioned the immigration thingy cause i did'nt realize that myself!! But with some tweaking in birth/death rate that could surely be taken care of. So that is not included yet, but have a look anyways:
http://www.geocities.com/alien_4v/P...Population.html

	13-04-2001 23:59									#107
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Mark:

quote: I think the age for the cohort boundaries should just slide as the society changes. On educating the young, I think that will work out ok with the present econ system. Education costs work (services) both for the educators and the educated. So if your young are being highly educated, they are of necessity not doing any other type of labor.

	18-04-2001 23:21									#108
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

forgot to tell ya, but i'm at my parents home this week so there's no developing cause i'm having a vacation and catching up with my courses at the same time (

	20-04-2001 09:04									#109
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Is there any population when the games starts, apart from Civilizations? If there's not, this is a possibility (which I already posted in the ecology tread).

Tribes and ecological provinces

When farming started, the human population was 6,000,000 and appr. 90% of the land mass was inhabited by humans. 6,000,000 people / 0.9*0.3*510,066,000 km˛ = a population of 435 people/10,000 km˛.
In The Beginning each inhabited eco-province would have its own tribe, accustomed to the climate, food and with appropriate customs to sustain themselves in that province. For example, a tribe in a hilly forest might be hunter-gatherers, while a tribe on the low-covered plains might be herders, driving around their herd; a tribe in a river ecological province might already be settled and farm minimally. Such a tribe has at most one center that is more densely populated then the average and is centre of the authority in the tribe. Those tribes might develop into civilizations at any time; they can also remain tribal, which is what most will do (until they are forced to modernize in some imperialist's empire).

On an earth-sized planet there will be appr. 13,771 squares inhabited. I suggest ecological provinces AS BIG AS POSSIBLE to keep them to a reasonable number to start with. An average size of 200 squares would give appr. 75 provinces on land mass, 25 provinces in oceans, seas, etc.

If civilizations grow beyond tribal structures, they will divide their territory into provinces. If such a province doesn't match an existing ecological province, the ecological province is simply divided into two parts: one outside and one inside the human province. They then form two separate provinces, that are checked separately for changes, since one suffers (most likely) from human influence, and the others doesn't.

	20-04-2001 12:23									#111
	Full PM-box? Change here!

That's about what I had in mind (about hundred tribes/infant civ's).

The main goal of the ecology-linked tribes was to simulate the normal spread of the human species before civilization. Making them evolve sometimes could 1) make the step from non-civilized to civilized smaller and thus more realistic and 2) provide a starting point for civ's that start later in the game. This would lessen the feel of having a civ placed at a random location on a bare map.

Those tribes could also be used for generating barbarian hordes, so they don't appear out of the void.

Real Life is becoming rather pressing next week, so I probably will be out for so long.