23-01-2002 07:23									#121
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I was thinking the same thing...on both counts.


Suddenly I feel like a member of a tabacco company. And I don't know why...

	23-01-2002 11:19									#122
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sn00py is a Kiwi? Explains a lot...

Cheers

	25-01-2002 19:51									#123
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Hi everyone !

Sorry i haven't been able to respond to your posts untill now. I have been away for over one week, and haven't been able to tell you guys.

Well, now i'm back and ready to do some more work on the tiles. I obviously made a mistake working on the coasts. I guess working on tiles 0300 in the night isnt so smart after all

I will change the coasts as we had originally agreed on, probably by tomorrow.

Also, the roads need some minor adjustments.

Btw: I was thinking the darker ocean would make the units (ships) more easy to see/handle. But i can change it back to the previous one if we feel that is the best.

And

quote: I can tell you how to make it so the terrain is the same every time if that would be useful for demos like the one you just did, and comparison to the old graphics. Just let me know if you think it would be valuable.

Yeah ! That would be great !

I will post more tomorrow... now its time to unpack my stuff...

Later...

-Stian-

	25-01-2002 21:56									#124
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Hi Stian, good to have you back!

To run the demo so the tiles are the same every time you need to run the program from the batch file, just as it says to do on the download page if you have trouble.

But before you run it, open the batch file in a text editor. In the line ending with .jar add " -seed" to the end of the line but without the quotes. Then when you run the batch file it will use the same seed for the random number generator every time, and you will get the same terrain every time. (Gary put that feature in, and its very useful) If you have trouble, let me know, and I'll put together a batch file for you.

If you look at the bottom of the bug list (2nd post in the D6 thread) there are other "switches" you can use in addition to -seed. Gary is now working to set it up so you can call up an alternate tileset specified in an xml file by putting the name on the command line. So you want to figure out how to do this soon anyway! We will get you that version of the code as soon as it's practical.

	25-01-2002 23:53									#125
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quote: Btw: I was thinking the darker ocean would make the units (ships) more easy to see/handle. But i can change it back to the previous one if we feel that is the best.

We need a light one (coastal waters) and a dark one (ocean).

quote: So you want to figure out how to do this soon anyway! We will get you that version of the code as soon as it's practical.

Testing it today.

Cheers

	28-01-2002 22:40									#126
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Hi, I heard about clash through Apolyton and downloaded the demo and I think it will be great when it is finished! I thought I might ask if I can help with any *minor* graphics for the game such as world tiles or goods/resources...

In case Apolyton is down again my email is jkhemming@yahoo.co.uk

EDIT: Changed email address to my usual one

Last edited by opaque on 04-02-2002 at 22:41

	30-01-2002 03:01									#127
	Hi everyone ! Remove this text

Sorry about the lack of updates.. i will try not to make promises i cant keep in the future.

I'm about 75% done with the coasts and the change from coast to sea .

Hi opaque !

Welcome to the Clash project. I certainly could use some help with the graphics.I'm allmost finished with an updated version of the tiles, so i think i got that covered. But there are LOTS of other areas that needs work. Units, improved Cities and so on...
What kind of graphics are you experienced with ?

-Stian-

Last edited by sas on 30-01-2002 at 03:06

	30-01-2002 07:18									#128
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Hey opaque, since nobody said anything, want to take a stab at the special goods overlays? I think they'd be a good addition to the map.

Hi sas, they look pretty slick. I think I'd like to see some beach maybe, or perhaps two of each tile would be best in the long run, one with beach and one without. Maybe just a bit more water too, at least for one without a beach. I think the ocean one needs a broader range over which the colors change.

Gary has gotten the new xml approach for images coded, so we will soon get you a version where you can just point to the new tiles and tell it to use them instead.

I don't think the code yet supports the coastal overlays... Gary?

	30-01-2002 21:52									#129
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Stian, as always I like your new tiles.

Nobody has ever (until now) given any thought to the transition from coastal to ocean waters. Your tile has half of each. This is not what we had planned, but I actually quite like the idea. The tile would function as a coastal tile, but it gives more scope for a pretty appearance.

The new code is almost releasable (it currently has some minor glitches) and the download should be much smaller.

There is nothing yet that implements the coastal overlays. It was pointless when there were no tiles. However, with the present simplified terrain structure it should not take long to incorporate.

Cheers

	30-01-2002 23:13									#130
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I am not really very experience in making good quality graphics which is why I would like to be given something simple to do whereby I can spend a lot of time making it look good (which I will do of course). Like I said, tiles or resources/goods would seem about my level, I shouldn't go for anything to complex in case it comes out looking crap.

If I make a resource/good without using the purple overlay sheet, I am not sure how I will get it to line up correctly with other objects on the map? Pehaps someone can explain how this will work?

	30-01-2002 23:46									#131
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Out of curiosity (I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere else), what kinds of special goods are being planned?

	31-01-2002 03:52									#132
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NOTICE ! the tiles in this picture is placed manually, and doesnt show how it will look in the game.

I made the picture just to give you an idea of how things are going. Dont bother about the tiles being not perfectly placed, look at the big picture. And i havent included all the tiles i've made. The corners is made, but isnt shown in the picture, because the sea part of the corner tiles are so small.



Does it look like i'm going the right way with this? My main reason for choosing narrow coastlines was thinking about the rivers. They shouldnt be to wide right ?

I could "blur" the transition from coastal to ocean waters, but personally i think it looks okay. Any comments except Marks ?

quote: Your tile has half of each. This is not what we had planned, but I actually quite like the idea.

I think from a visual point of view, half of each looks better.

-----------------------------------------------

quote: If I make a resource/good without using the purple overlay sheet, I am not sure how I will get it to line up correctly with other objects on the map? Pehaps someone can explain how this will work?

I will mail you a "standard" tile, with the right proportions... You can use it to compare with your work so that its placed in the right place.

-Stian-

	31-01-2002 04:06									#133
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Mark is right, the sea should be more and the beach should be larger. Or you could put sharp rocks and wavecrest, for rocky coasts.

My main gripe is that coasts are too straight. They should be more curly.

I believe that rivers should have an entirely different graphic than coasts. Something more serpent-like, with a bit of green around it for vegetation.

	31-01-2002 04:22									#134
	Re: Another update Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by sas NOTICE !Does it look like i'm going the right way with this? My main reason for choosing narrow coastlines was thinking about the rivers. They shouldnt be to wide right ?

I think your direction is basically good, although I have to admit it doesn't 'sing' to me yet. Or is it the audio that's supposed to do that...

Ahhh, I hadn't thought about rivers. But I believe Axi's solution is best, just have different overlays for coasts and rivers. I also agree that the coasts are too straight, although that can be changed down the line. As a start you could do the rivers with coastline, and we'd know it was just that the rivers were temporarily too wide.


Blakis:

I just spent about 10 min looking for the paper specials list I have from way back. I've got something like 20 things so far. My guess is it'll be more like 30 for the final game. I bet they'll probably be similar to the Civ3 ones, since there's usually a fair amount of agreement on what the critical things are in a particular age. Do you know of a list around, like maybe on one of the civ3 forums? Once we've got a decent list I'll put in in the ecnon thread.

	03-02-2002 04:39									#135
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quote: think your direction is basically good, although I have to admit it doesn't 'sing' to me yet

Mark my friend, its not supposed to "sing" yet But it will though, i promise.

Thanks for the feedback. Now that the rivers wont be the same tiles as the coast, things are easier. I agree with axi that the coast should be more curly. They dont look natural the way they are now. So i will have to do something a bout that.

-Stian-

	10-02-2002 23:56									#136
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Well, here's another "update".

I've made the coast more realistic, but just the beach version so far. It seems it can be used as rivers for now as well. The transition from shallow water to deeper will have to be "blurred" some I think. And the curves has to be softer as well. The coast tiles are placed manually.

So what do you guys think? I will make a rocky coast later on, but its not on my top list of priorities for now.

Gary: What kind of "special" recourses will be used in the game? opaque said to me by mail that he would be willing to take a look at them.

Here's the pictures for comparison:

Original Picture:



Updated without coasts:



With coast:



As River:



Comments?

-Stian-

	11-02-2002 01:39									#137
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Hey Stian:

I think they look Really good! And the temp river is certainly useable as-is. I will get you the version of the code that lets you swap in files in a more natural way soon. We have an ugly bug in the version I was going to sent, that I'm hoping we can get cleared up first. I agree with your asessments.

Specials are actually my job. The reason I had you ask Gary before was to find when the graphics code could support them. I think a good start would be the ones we have in now: Gold, Tin, Salt, and Cloth. Beyond that other obvious ones we'll need fairly soon are Horses, Metalwares, Fish, Game, and Iron.

	11-02-2002 06:29									#138
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The beaches are good and the "river" will do for now.

The only thing that's missing from the picture now is cities and roads as overlays. But I think stian should wait for the new version of the game, to make his life easy.

It is about time we get to an agreement (and post it!) on the specs of a certain tileset (a list with filenames etc), so that we can find out what's missing and complete at least one tileset.

The coast tiles, are they different from the normal grassland tiles on purpose?

I'd like to see such a map with some plains, desert, tundra, etc. Let's see how well the vegetations mix. Perhaps we han have such a map in the next (official) demo.

As for specials, I propose that all minerals should be marked with bullions bearing the chemical denomination of the substance: Au, Ag, Cu, Fe, Zn, NaCl, etc... Metalwares could be two crossed hammers. Horses, game and fish are obvious (I hope someone is skillfull enough for those).

YMMV of course...

	11-02-2002 08:39									#139
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Frankly that is nothing short of brilliant! I particularly like the way that the bright green has been cut back. That will actually allow a tile for cultivated land to be quite visible, and allows the units to stand out.

I think the the river will do for quite a while. How do the coast overlays handle corners? I need to know this for the code. Also, how does a branching river look?

What about mountains on the coast?

Cheers

	11-02-2002 15:56									#140
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Stian, this looks very good.
axi, I don't think NaCl for specials will do. Most people would prefer to see "salt", which is as long.
I also think someone who is not a chemist will have trouble remembering Ag means silver and Fe iron. How do you distinguish C from Cu at first glance, for instance? I think giving a different color is more important, although you can put the symbols in addition. Also, salt should look different from copper.

	11-02-2002 17:59									#141
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What I don't like to see is similar looking lumps of minerals or bullions of metal with a slightly different color and no denomination whatsoever. And yes, the colors should be different.

	11-02-2002 21:57									#142
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quote: The coast tiles, are they different from the normal grassland tiles on purpose?

Axi, that reminds me of something I have been meaning to ask.

How much are the tiles reduced in the game from the "original" ? I had to manually reduce the size of the tiles to make them "fit" into the game.

The tiles in the picture is a second version of grass (reduced in size). I've made grassland and plains, the same as in Civ 1+2+3.

The coasts with the other tiles is "almost" finished, but wanted the feedback first.

quote: How do the coast overlays handle corners? I need to know this for the code. Also, how does a branching river look?

Gary: There are two ways we can handle this. What you see in the picture isn't overlays, just regular tiles with the coast. If the code supports that, we could go that way.
With the overlay option, they look the same , just placed on top of the land tile.

As for branching river, we could use the corner tiles. In that way the river can be divided or merged.

Is my way of thinking right here ?

-Stain-

	11-02-2002 23:30									#143
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I have been wondering where my 500th post would end up. Anyway, here it is.

quote: What I don't like to see is similar looking lumps of minerals or bullions of metal with a slightly different color and no denomination whatsoever. And yes, the colors should be different.

You will be able to right click on a square to get a summary, or left click to see the full details in the details box.

quote: How much are the tiles reduced in the game from the "original" ? I had to manually reduce the size of the tiles to make them "fit" into the game.

The tiles MUST be 120 wide by 60 high. For historical reasons which baffle me somewhat the code reduces them to 80x40. Rationalizing this seems to be a good idea.

quote: What you see in the picture isn't overlays, just regular tiles with the coast. If the code supports that, we could go that way.

The code can go either way. The problem with non-overlays is that each terrain type needs 256 tiles. However they will look better, and there is no corner problem. If we assume that there will be, say 20 terrain types (we don't have to worry about sea types!) in the final game, we have 5012 tiles. This does seem to be a rather large number. If we can do it that way I would prefer it. Among other things, we don't get half trees as can happen with overlays.

As an explanation for the 256 tiles, the tile has 8 neighbours (including diagonals), each neighbour is potentially sea, so there are 2⁸ = 256 combinations.

I would actually arrange each set of 256 as a single gif and extract the individual tiles as needed. A single gif that is 1280x640 (assuming we make them all 80x40) seems a bit more manageable than 256 tiles. And we would only have 20 such gifs.

quote: In that way the river can be divided or merged.

The river will only split at a corner, so, from a particular corner there will be rivers along more than two edges.

Cheers

	12-02-2002 04:59									#144
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I think that your computations are all wrong Gary and I explained why before:

quote: Assuming that they are inside the land tile, we only need 4 overlays for the sides (1 for each) plus 8 overlays for the corners (2 for each). However this assumption means that we can't have the tile graphics extend outside the boundaries of the tiles. I checked civ2 out and it uses a table with 32 tiles, but they are covering all possible 3-tile combinations: 0.5*8^2 (8 combinations for each of the 2nd and 3rd tiles, divide by 2 for symmetry)

Which reminds me that there is still the strait vs. isthmus issue to be resolved.

	12-02-2002 08:53									#145
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quote: plus 8 overlays for the corners (2 for each).

By my count it is 3 for each of the corners. Considering the top corner: water/land, land/water and water/water.

4 sides + 12 corners = 20 overlays in all.

quote: I checked civ2 out and it uses a table with 32 tiles, but they are covering all possible 3-tile combinations: 0.5*8^2

What on earth is a "3-tile combination".

We are only talking about a single tile here. A single tile has interactions with eight other tiles. Each of these 8 interactions may have water, or not, that is, 2 choices each, repeated 8 times. This leads to 2⁸ = 256 combinations as I said.

I can't see where any other tiles come into the calculation.

At a corner (with coast on both sides of the corner), if it is a strait, we tell the square that the diagonally adjacent square is water, even if it is land. If it is an isthmus, we tell the square that the diagonally adjacent square is land (which it is). No extra combinations are needed.

Cheers

	12-02-2002 20:49									#146
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quote: At a corner (with coast on both sides of the corner), if it is a strait, we tell the square that the diagonally adjacent square is water, even if it is land. If it is an isthmus, we tell the square that the diagonally adjacent square is land (which it is). No extra combinations are needed.

However we have to put some graphic overlay on the connection point (covering a small part of all 4 adjacent tiles) if we want to have an isthmus instead of a default strait (if we had coasts in the outside of tiles like in civ2, then we would have to do the reverse). This is needed for the map to look the same way it functions.

quote: What on earth is a "3-tile combination".

As for the way civ2 handles it, just open the tiles.gif file and see what I mean.

quote: By my count it is 3 for each of the corners. Considering the top corner: water/land, land/water and water/water.

Not if the side overlays extend to the corner of the square. Then the water/land and land/water combinations are covered de facto while the two overlays are needed for the land/land (to depict the inner part of a gulf) and the water/water (to depict a cape) combinations.

	12-02-2002 21:43									#147
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quote: However we have to put some graphic overlay on the connection point (covering a small part of all 4 adjacent tiles) if we want to have an isthmus instead of a default strait (if we had coasts in the outside of tiles like in civ2, then we would have to do the reverse). This is needed for the map to look the same way it functions.

You are quite right. However I was talking about the non-overlay case, so we would wind up with sea squares with a little bit of land on them

For this reason I am inclined to dispense with the isthmus idea. It is not an essential or even important factor of the game. Perhaps at some later stage it can be added as a special case, but not in the immediate future.

quote: just open the tiles.gif file

What tiles.gif file?

quote: Not if the side overlays extend to the corner of the square. Then the water/land and land/water combinations are covered de facto while the two overlays are needed for the land/land (to depict the inner part of a gulf) and the water/water (to depict a cape) combinations

I got that wrong too. You have convinced me. I was still thinking of coping with the isthmus situation.

However, I stick with the 256 combinations.

Cheers

	12-02-2002 22:29									#148
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quote: However, I stick with the 256 combinations.

No I don't.

The above reasoning means that we do not have to worry about the diagonally adjacent squares, except as described below. So there are only four adjacent squares to worry about, giving ony 2⁴ = 16 combinations. The combinations become:

1 of no sea
4 with a single side of sea
2 with opposite sides sea
4 with two adjacent sides sea
4 with three sides sea
1 with sea all around

The situation in which we need to worry about the diagonally adjacent square is if the other two adjoining squares are land, and the diagonal one is sea. In this case we need a little corner of sea.

Any square with two adjacent land sides might get that in between.

The no adjacent sea can have 16 combinations (including the no diagonal sea one) = 16
Each single side of sea can have 4 = 16
The opposite sides of sea are not affected = 2
Each of the two adjacent sides of sea has 2 = 8
The three sides of sea is not affected = 4
The sea all around is not affected = 1

For a total of 47. Now tell me what is wrong with this reasoning.

Thanks for your perseverance!

Cheers

	12-02-2002 22:31									#149
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quote: What tiles.gif file?

sorry, I meant terrain.gif

quote: Thanks for your perseverance!

You're welcome.

	12-02-2002 22:40									#150
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quote: sorry, I meant terrain.gif

Is that part of CivII? If so, I don't have it.

Did you see my latest edited version with the corners added?

Cheers