02-10-2004 05:33									#1
	A Confession Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Someone quite awhile back wanted to know how I managed to create such lucrative trade stuff in AoI.

The truth is . . . . . .

I have no idea.

I just took the map, set up the cities, and started testing. Turns out that, for whatever reasons, the distances involved and size of cities generated many stupendous payoffs.

If anyone else can figure it out . . . .

good luck.

	02-10-2004 06:04									#2
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I think it's some sort of algebra equation.

City Size x Distance x Goods Multiplier = Cash

Don't ask me to test this though

	02-10-2004 08:48									#3
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Actually having the target in a different continent pays off a lot so if you made a map with different continents and then sealed off the water manually in the game, that would do the trick.

	02-10-2004 12:47									#4
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Go to the Civ2-Strategy forum at Poly and open Slow Thinker's topped thread "Great Library Index". The Great Library is an incredible treasure trove of information on most aspects of Civ2. It is well worth browsing it.

Work your way down to Caravans and Freights. There is detailed info on the very complex calculation of payoffs and trade routes.

	02-10-2004 16:26									#5
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quote: Originally posted by kobayashi Actually having the target in a different continent pays off a lot so if you made a map with different continents and then sealed off the water manually in the game, that would do the trick.

Andrew Livings actually did this for one of the later versions of 'Crises of the New World Order'. It worked really well, and I've always been in awe of him for having done so - he must have rebuilt the scenario from scratch with a map created through the map editor!

	02-10-2004 16:36									#6
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quote: Footnote in previous post by Case My new Civ 2 scenario Appeasement and Agression has now been released!

Do I dare to hope that this is the version with the correct tech rate that your fans have been clamoring for?

	02-10-2004 17:25									#7
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In Colonies IV by John Ellis, which is also on a gigamap, you can also get fantastic bonuses for trade. I've got over 3,000 gold several times for a transatlantic cargo. Distance plays a big role in determining how lucrative the pay-off is.

	02-10-2004 18:34									#8
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The best caravan revenue I've had was in my Komnenai scn, and was about 2000 gold.
I don't remember which scities are involved, but salt route between Constantinople and Syracuse can give You sth like 1700 gold too; but it's because of the "coast" terrain.

	02-10-2004 22:54									#9
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I got an near-unbelievable 3500+ gold once...

Can't recall the scen - Thought it could have been 1870!

	03-10-2004 00:47									#10
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3500 gold... wow...
But I guess You could have even more with proper terrain settings

	03-10-2004 01:47									#11
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Just in case you didn't see the post in the next thread, here's Samson's Equation to Calculate Caravan Payoff's.

	03-10-2004 02:09									#12
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Thank You.

	03-10-2004 04:45									#13
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quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA Do I dare to hope that this is the version with the correct tech rate that your fans have been clamoring for?

Not yet

	03-10-2004 18:17									#14
	Re: A Confession Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Exile Someone quite awhile back wanted to know how I managed to create such lucrative trade stuff in AoI. The truth is . . . . . . I have no idea. I just took the map, set up the cities, and started testing. Turns out that, for whatever reasons, the distances involved and size of cities generated many stupendous payoffs. If anyone else can figure it out . . . . good luck.

That 'someone' was me , and you told me it was a secret back then you cheeky bastard

Anywho, I'm not sure I can take those equations very seriously. You see, in Imp1870 the trade revenues are great, but when I used the exact same (only with minor modifications) map for Blitzkrieg, (and my cities had bigger trade production than the Imp cities has off the bat), I failed to get those lucrative bonuses. I have tested and tested, over and over again, and never even been close to your gold bonuses. I've tried almost everything, without any break through. I learned that the amount of techs count in, or it is some specific techs that boosts the gold bonus. I tried with the same commodity slot, the same commodity demand, with the same cities in BK as the ones I tested in imp, but nothing happened. So it's a bit weird, since we have the same distances and everything

It would revolutionize empire building scenarios if someone found out.

You must have done something, Exile So must Mr. Livings. The revenues are great in Crisis as well....It must be a government conspiracy

	03-10-2004 18:50									#15
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Here's a test for you. It's not the same commidty slot, but the revenue differences are enourmous. Both saves have an activated freight outside New York, with Berlin as their home. They both have a commodity the city is demanding.

Attachment: trade.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	03-10-2004 22:29									#16
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I have gotten over 2000 several times even in regular civ games. It depends on the good, size distance, terrain, bonus for being on seperate continents, and another bonus if trading with the enemy. I also living lining my pockets later in the game by sending freight over rail straight to an enemy capitol.

	04-10-2004 04:54									#17
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Still, I don't undertstand why the trade bonuses in the above posted test saves are so radically different ,when the proportions are so similar. It certainly beats me. To the extent it's destroying my night sleeps. I sometimes wake up in the middle of the night, cold sweating, screeming out: "Why, oh, why!?!". Well, not really, but it annoys me

I need a closure to this frigging problem

	04-10-2004 06:30									#18
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Unfortunately I lack time to examine your example, but is it possible to plug in numbers from your examples into Samson's equation? It could help your rest.

	04-10-2004 06:40									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Kobra Here's a test for you. It's not the same commidty slot, but the revenue differences are enourmous. Both saves have an activated freight outside New York, with Berlin as their home. They both have a commodity the city is demanding.

There is no mystery about this. Different commodities have different bonuses. The higher a commodity is on the trade advisor's list (hides to uranium), the bigger the bonus. In your example gold has a much greater bonus than silver.

There are threads both here and at civfan that have dealt with this in detail.

	04-10-2004 07:38									#20
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I know that, but I've tried to change the city demands as well, to have even more similar situations (silver and silver and gold and gold), and the imp sav still gets much much more than the BK one.

It is a mystery.

	04-10-2004 12:52									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I think that you may be trying to compare apples and oranges. The two examples appear to be in different eras (trade bonus parameters, etc.) as far as Civ2 is concerned.

For example, if you level the playing field by giving all techs to each side in both saves, the payoffs change radically. However, I don't think that the changes can be explained by the number of techs alone, they may also be related to the game year (turn number) or a particular tech.

	06-10-2004 21:05									#22
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Remember that some techs, like railroad and navigation, halve freight payoff bonus. Perhaps the difference was in the tech assigned to each sides.

	06-10-2004 21:08									#23
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And, BTW, a curious situation is Gold Gulch, where caravan between cities distant only a few squares generate minnimal payoffs (10-300), while giving huge trade revenues, (even 19 ! ), identical to that of imp1870 !

	06-10-2004 23:52									#24
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AFAIK, the trade revenue does not depend upon distance between the cities, but rather on their size and raw trade output.

	07-10-2004 03:07									#25
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I'm lost.

Last edited by germanos on 07-10-2004 at 03:24

	07-10-2004 06:14									#26
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The above comments are pertinent. I left the Railroad tech out of AoI, and, IIRC, Navigation was renamed something else and it usually doesn't appear until late in the scenario.

And I do believe that distance DOES increase the payoff of trade routes.

Also, the "continent" effect does work. Trade routes to cities on their own island/continent does payoff better than those on the same continent, even if the overall distance is not as great. I discovered this with AoC when I started creating trade routes based on Cyprus, Crete, and even Sardinia and Corsica.

However, my own experience is that gold and oil (especially oil), payoff luxuriously because of multipliers for those trade items. I have landed oil caravans based on San Francisco into British cities and the payoffs have consistently exceeded 4000 gp.

	07-10-2004 06:28									#27
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Is this relevant? http://coc.apolyton.net/guides/trade_payoff.shtml

	07-10-2004 07:39									#28
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Exile, AFAIK, distance increases the Money (and science) payoff that vans yeld, but not the Trade bonus between the intervening cities.

	07-10-2004 16:17									#29
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quote: Originally posted by germanos I'm lost.

But now I 've found

Eivind/Kobra: In your scenario the payaff cannot be greater then 754 gold. The reason for this is the 'science-cap': The pay-off at delivery can NEVER be bigger then 2/3 of the amount of beakers needed for your next research.

In your scen, the Axis needs 1131 beakers, while in Imp1870 the Germans need 4898 beakers. This makes the respective maximum pay-off 754 and 3265.

Do note that your Axis unit indeed brings 754 gold.
The potential for the pay-off is much, MUCH bigger though, and is (undoubtedly)*) fully consistant with the results from Imp1870. If you would bring a not-demanded cargo to New York (which invokes a 50% penalty with regard to the pay-off for delivery) you will see that this cargo also will bring 754 gold

*) disclaimer: not fully tested, but with the example I have given it leaves very little doubt.


On a side note: N35t0r is right that trade-routes are not affected by distance, nor by cargo type. The pay-off IS affected by distance and Cargo-type (among others: do check the Great Library here for full details)

	07-10-2004 18:28									#30
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quote: Originally posted by germanos But now I 've found

OMG, Germanos, you're a friggin genious!

I turned up the tech paradigm to 100/10 in the BK-test and it immediately payed off "Imp-ish"!

All these equations and the answer was plain and simple, and right ahead of our nose

I am extremely grateful for this information, Germanos!