05-10-2004 07:14									#31
	Got spare money?

I haven't played CTP2 for 12 months or so now. I have been thinking about what would entice me to play it again.

Simply fixing the bugs probably wouldn't be enough. Even an improved AI may not be enough. I would want something new.

Now if we are talking about a public release then realistically this something 'new' needs to be highly visible. If its not, then potential players are not going to be very interested.

My suggestion, then, is that the new release be wrapped up in a 'new' MOD. I know that this means extra work for all concerned but without it the risk of failure is very high. (By failure I mean no-one playing the game.)

Perhaps the various existing MODs could be scoured and something 'new' cobbled together.

	05-10-2004 20:22									#32
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: - a stable build (which seems to be there) - an improved AI (which is developing although there is much more to be done) - an easy to download version (no fiddling with getting the correct updated files into th eright places) - improved mod handling (much of the fun with CTP2 now is that the mods can give you very different games) -multiplayer (not for me)

An easy to setup version is somewhat easy to do, it wouldn't be much of a problem to make it extract itself to the right places. Improved mod handling can now nearly be done through scenario selection, though there's still some minor stuff to fix, I think.
Multiplayer is a very important question, regarding whether we need it in the first release. Because if we want it there (I don't), it will delay the official release by a lot. It would probably take several months to create a playable multiplayer system, and we don't now even have anyone to work on it.

	06-10-2004 13:56									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Having followed the entire discussion in this thread, I'll try to give an summarise and answer to some of the questions I posted myself (in non-sequential order )

2) Listening to the MP players, it's quite obvious our current build of the AE is unsuitable for MP play. Therefore, if we are to release an official version of the AE anytime soon, we should at the very least inform potentials users of the MP problems and include clear instructions on how to have 2 seperate installations of the game: one for MP, one for SP.

Of course, the ideal solution would be to not release anything until MP is done, but there's no point in delaying a release if noone is even going to begin working on MP anytime soon.


3) It's becoming clear that there's still quite a bit of work to be done before we can release: a lot of people seem to agree that changes to the text files should be made to accompany the changes to the EXE, effectively creating a new mod similar to the SAP and making it the default option. In the minds of these people, the official release should not just fix bugs, but also offer more balanced gameplay and a more challenging AI. I concur that this would be a good idea.

Putting such a 'mod' together and properly testing it will require some time though: remember that each of the major mods that exist today took many months to develop. Even if most of the changes for our 'mod' are copied from existing mods, it will take time to decide on the details and to playtest and balance it extensively. This is not a bad thing, as in the meantime it would also give calvitix and others working on the AI in the source files a chance to do some good work there.

I also agree with LDiCesare and others that fully functional in-game mod support (i.e. the scenario selection setup) should be included in the AE. For one thing this could be used for puritans who insist on wanting to play with the original out-of-the-box gameplay (read: Tamerlin ) But more obviously of course to make playing with Cradle, MedMod, CTC, etc easier with the AE. So the time that's required to work on the textfiles and AI of the default game could also be used to make sure this setup works 100% bug-free (Martin said something about bugs with quicksaves?) and to release new versions of the existing mods that are fully compatible with it (i.e. at least repackage them to extract to the scenario folders, so no manual moving around of files is required by the lazy and/or inexperienced).


1) Based on the above paragraphs, it's quite clear that we can't release now (as in within a few weeks) if we wanted to, there's still too much work to be done. So I say let's just continue working on improving the game further for a while longer, but let's extend our efforts to the text files as well. By the time we're satisfied the text file changes are (more or less) complete and the AI is sufficiently challenging, we can reconsider the option of a release. Personally, I certainly don't see this happening before early next year.

In the meantime, hopefully someone (either of the existing team or someone new) will start to work on fixing the MP bugs as well. That would bring a 'complete' release (i.e. SP and MP) a lot closer, which I think we all agree would be the best solution. But if there's still no improvement whatsoever in that area by the time the SP game is ready for release, I think it would be folly to expect that to change then. So in that case we should IMO just release the SP improvements seperately and hope that the publicity that that will generate will attract some new programmers.

Last edited by Locutus on 06-10-2004 at 14:03

	06-10-2004 18:54									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Locutus For one thing this could be used for puritans who insist on wanting to play with the original out-of-the-box gameplay (read: Tamerlin )...

I would have preferred "purists"...



I must admit that I like the original gameplay a lot especially when you add the improvements of the SAP2 over it and a few tweaks. The possibility of easily changing some files without being a programmer in order to adapt the game to your own tastes should also be a priority as far as I am concerned, this is one of the major features of this game.

Even if there has been a lot of progress, I agree with Locutus, there is still a lot of work to do before releasing an official AE.

And you can count on me to stop (or at least to try to) the Civ3 gangrene.

	06-10-2004 19:44									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Therefore, if we are to release an official version of the AE anytime soon, we should at the very least inform potentials users of the MP problems and include clear instructions on how to have 2 seperate installations of the game: one for MP, one for SP. Of course, the ideal solution would be to not release anything until MP is done, but there's no point in delaying a release if noone is even going to begin working on MP anytime soon.

Fully agree. Especially with the part that delaying a release because of MP is pointless at this rate.

quote: Putting such a 'mod' together and properly testing it will require some time though: remember that each of the major mods that exist today took many months to develop. Even if most of the changes for our 'mod' are copied from existing mods, it will take time to decide on the details and to playtest and balance it extensively. This is not a bad thing, as in the meantime it would also give calvitix and others working on the AI in the source files a chance to do some good work there.

Yes, but if we are going to use SAP2 as a base for our new mod, we can get this done considerably faster. We may be needing a new thread soon or several even, to discuss what kind of changes we want in the mod generally, and specific discussion on those.

quote: By the time we're satisfied the text file changes are (more or less) complete and the AI is sufficiently challenging, we can reconsider the option of a release. Personally, I certainly don't see this happening before early next year.

Agreed, too. With luck, we may have something like a beta-version of that this year.

quote: In the meantime, hopefully someone (either of the existing team or someone new) will start to work on fixing the MP bugs as well. That would bring a 'complete' release (i.e. SP and MP) a lot closer, which I think we all agree would be the best solution. But if there's still no improvement whatsoever in that area by the time the SP game is ready for release, I think it would be folly to expect that to change then. So in that case we should IMO just release the SP improvements seperately and hope that the publicity that that will generate will attract some new programmers.

One of the problems currently is that there's not much chance new people will come, as the project isn't going to get any more publicity. It was mentioned quite a lot on the initial source code release, but the chances of some programmer suddenly finding this place are pretty slim.

	06-10-2004 21:07									#36
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Solver Yes, but if we are going to use SAP2 as a base for our new mod, we can get this done considerably faster. We may be needing a new thread soon or several even, to discuss what kind of changes we want in the mod generally, and specific discussion on those.

I have a lot of things to say about the SAP2 as I have already worked on a few things to change a few aspects of the game (nothing like the real work the slicers can produce though).

	06-10-2004 22:26									#37
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quote: I have a lot of things to say about the SAP2 as I have already worked on a few things to change a few aspects of the game (nothing like the real work the slicers can produce though).

Then let us all know Tamerlin Check out the terrain thread, we're looking like using all the SAP2 values with some small tweaks to water terrains.

	06-10-2004 23:33									#38
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Then let us all know Tamerlin Check out the terrain thread, we're looking like using all the SAP2 values with some small tweaks to water terrains.

I already had a look at the terrain thread and I agree with the values of the SAP2, I can't give my opinion about the changed value (sea terrain) because I have not yet read the whole thread. I don't have too much time available these days as I am preparing a "Murder" (a game, not an assassination attempt ), I am playing one of the most important characters and my background and role are very complex. I thus have a lot of work for this week-end.

If a thread related to a SAP2 scenario/mod is not created by monday, as it was suggested earlier today by Solver, I do it myself... monday.

	07-10-2004 00:43									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

Ah I thought so.... as soon as I mention something you dont like you jump on it within minutes

quote: If a thread related to a SAP2 scenario/mod is not created by monday, as it was suggested earlier today by Solver, I do it myself... monday.

I assumed we'd be creating seperate threads for each area we decide needs changing, governments, units/combat, buildings, wonders, of which we then use the mods and mainly SAP2 as a base for ideas, make some suggestions and see how we end up.

	07-10-2004 01:38									#40
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: I assumed we'd be creating seperate threads for each area we decide needs changing, governments, units/combat, buildings, wonders, of which we then use the mods and mainly SAP2 as a base for ideas, make some suggestions and see how we end up.

Yes, my idea was one thread also for general stuff - that is decide, what areas we want to change, as well as other general questions about that mod, to go together with the threads on specific feauture changes.

	07-10-2004 01:50									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Ah I thought so.... as soon as I mention something you dont like you jump on it within minutes

Don't worry, if there is something I don't like I will let you know.

I will jump on the heretic idea as "poverty on the poors" as we say in France.