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Locutus
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ACS CTP1/2 Manager & Civ4 Co-Manager
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Hengelo, The Netherlands
Nov 1999
time: 06:22
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The discussion popped up in the Cafe thread, but it's important enough to be moved to its own thread, if only to ensure everyone sees it. I could've made this a poll but I didn't: I'd like to hear everyone's personal opinion, and frankly, I think in this case the opinion of prominent members of the project team should weigh heavier than that of some anonymous passer-by (though passers-by are still more than encouraged to post their opinion  )
Originally we planned to not release anything official until the game was at least on par with the official v1.11 patch. However, all the SP changes from that patch (and many other improvements) have long since been incorporated, while virtually no work has been or is being done on MP at all AFAIK.
So now at least some people are saying maybe we should forget about MP for the moment and at least have some sort of official release for the SP game. The advantage of waiting until MP is 'done' is that it might motivate our programmers to work on MP so that we can release ASAP, and it also doesn't confront MPers with the dilemma of which version of the game to use. OTOH, the advantage of having an official release now is that it might give the project some publicity, which might attract more programmers (including hopefully someone with a background and/or interest in MP), and it would let the wider strategy gaming community know of the vast improvements that have been made to this game over the past year.
Some questions we should answer:
1) Do we want to have an official (or semi-official) release now or do we want to wait until all MP changes from the patch have been incorporated?
2) Where does the MP game stand now? Is the MP game of the Apolyton Edition better/more stable/faster than the original game or not? Is one version clearly preferable for MP, or do they both have their virtues? I guess the MP playtesters can answer this best...
3) What must still be done before we can have an official release? What features are currently on the to-do list or under development that should still be included in the first official release? (E.g. barbarian placement, bombardment range?) And what other things need to be done? (E.g. readme, credits, etc)
4) How should we refer to this release, if we decide to have it? Should it be labeled patch v1.2? Apolyton Edition v1.0? Something else? How do we make clear to non-intimi what exactly this release is supposed to be (and what not) and where it stands compared to the original game and the official patch?
5) If we do decide to release now, how do we maximamize publicity to get as many people interested as possible?
6) Where should this project go after the release (if we have one)? Will we work on another similar patch with MP and SP fixes and rebalancing, without significantly altering gameplay? Should we start to seriously redesign internal mechanisms such as AI? Should we actually start to implement some of the more radical gameplay changes that have been discussed in this forum in the past year? What is the priority of PBEM and Hotseat and maybe other modes of play?
Discuss...
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Solver
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Apolyton Duke Of Something
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Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:22
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quote:
Originally we planned to not release anything official until the game was at least on par with the official v1.11 patch. However, all the SP changes from that patch (and many other improvements) have long since been incorporated, while virtually no work has been or is being done on MP at all AFAIK. |
Personally, I'd argue that the game currently surpasses the 1.11 patch, in my personal evaluation. That is solely because of the SP changes.
quote:
1) Do we want to have an official (or semi-official) release now or do we want to wait until all MP changes from the patch have been incorporated? |
I want a release. Got to take into consideration the fact that incorporating MP changes will take a LONG time. AFAIK, we have no network programmers, so without new coders experienced in that area, it will take quite a while to implement those changes, taking in account that the MP code in current version is poor.
quote:
2) Where does the MP game stand now? Is the MP game of the Apolyton Edition better/more stable/faster than the original game or not? Is one version clearly preferable for MP, or do they both have their virtues? I guess the MP playtesters can answer this best... |
I'll leave that to the MP playtesters, but from what I've read, it seems that it's possible to play games under the current build, too. I'm not sure if we have PBEM/Hotseat tested at all.
quote:
3) What must still be done before we can have an official release? What features are currently on the to-do list or under development that should still be included in the first official release? (E.g. barbarian placement, bombardment range?) And what other things need to be done? (E.g. readme, credits, etc) |
I think that the feautures are fine as they are. Yes, there's discussion on barb placement and bombard range, but neither feauture is so crucial that it's needed for a release, it's just us pondering mainly. I'd say fix the new National Manager sort bug, to give it a cleaner look and fix the bug where you can't get tiles that were occupied by enemy forts to count as your territory, and then we have everything we need for the first release. Oh, maybe the diplo-photo issue too.
The credits are fine, I guess everyone is on the list, though I haven't checked thoroughly. The readme might need a bit more work explaining what it is, and stating that mods do actually work with the game.
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4) How should we refer to this release, if we decide to have it? Should it be labeled patch v1.2? Apolyton Edition v1.0? Something else? How do we make clear to non-intimi what exactly this release is supposed to be (and what not) and where it stands compared to the original game and the official patch? |
Using CtP2:Apolyton Edition seems the best, we I think agreed to that some time ago. Patch 1.2 will create confusion with the Activision version. CtP2:Apolyton Edition 0.9 perhaps?
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5) If we do decide to release now, how do we maximamize publicity to get as many people interested as possible? |
Obviously everything we can do on Apolyton. A directory download for the latest build, a forum announcement and a news item. If possible, have CFC post a new item too.
quote:
6) Where should this project go after the release (if we have one)? Will we work on another similar patch with MP and SP fixes and rebalancing, without significantly altering gameplay? Should we start to seriously redesign internal mechanisms such as AI? Should we actually start to implement some of the more radical gameplay changes that have been discussed in this forum in the past year? What is the priority of PBEM and Hotseat and maybe other modes of play? |
Further along the same lines, I'd say. Continue fixing SP bugs, get someone to work on MP if possible. AI is my top gameplay priority overall for the game, so I'd love seeing it improved. As for radical gameplay feautures, no, they're too hard to implement, and about most there is no unanimous agreement. Instead, focus on adding new SLIC functions that would allow modders to create new feautures.
PBEM is a high priority. Look at CtP1, it's alive and kicking through PBEM, being a 5 years old game now. Online matches are played, too, but nowhere near as much as PBEM.
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Maquiladora
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My reply in the cafe:
quote:
Well last time I tried MP (previous playtest from current) it wasn't playable IMO, although it ran fine, there were bugs with collecting public works tax, a major part of the game.
I don't know about Hotseat or PBEM, but if this is intended to be a big release then it might be an idea to take out the network game button or at least include some kind of very noticeable warning. |
1. I have to say wait until MP is finished, one of the biggest and famous bugs with CtP2 was the rush-buy bug, we all leapt when we heard it was fixed, but now there's other bugs, fine that can't be helped much right now, but I think there are a lot of silent MP out there as well as SP who would rejoin the MP community if it were fixed. I understand if the coders want a release now, they're the ones putting the gritty work in right now but as I said I don't think we should be in any rush.
3. If this is released I would at least like to see tweaks to some simple text files, it's a simple job (compared to coding) and it has a big effect on the AI, which can only project more progress in the project. Files like strategies.txt, I was testing a new advancelists.txt for example with the last playtest, but it needs changes in strategies.txt and maybe some others to fully help the AI.
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Solver
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Apolyton Duke Of Something
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Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:22
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quote:
I have to say wait until MP is finished, one of the biggest and famous bugs with CtP2 was the rush-buy bug, we all leapt when we heard it was fixed, but now there's other bugs, fine that can't be helped much right now, but I think there are a lot of silent MP out there as well as SP who would rejoin the MP community if it were fixed. |
There are SP players that would play MP if it was fixed. I would myself possibly play a PBEM game or two. However, there are many more people who are not playing CtP2 at all, waiting for some official source build release (some of these people Apolytoners from other sections).
quote:
If this is released I would at least like to see tweaks to some simple text files, it's a simple job (compared to coding) and it has a big effect on the AI, which can only project more progress in the project. Files like strategies.txt, I was testing a new advancelists.txt for example with the last playtest, but it needs changes in strategies.txt and maybe some others to fully help the AI. |
I would strongly suggest that Apolyton Pack 2 + GoodMod text files go together as 'official' for CtP2:AE. The reasoning as as follows. These mods significantly improve the AI and add many nice feautures and impove game balance. Yet, they are not as radical as Cradle, and basically are not too different from the vanilla game, so they'd go in fine.
Another thought... has checking the government type through SLIC been implemeted? Maybe before the official release, we need to make city limit scalable to mapsize, or else a 10 city limit on a huge map is ridicilous.
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Maquiladora
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quote:
I would strongly suggest that Apolyton Pack 2 + GoodMod text files go together as 'official' for CtP2:AE. The reasoning as as follows. These mods significantly improve the AI and add many nice feautures and impove game balance. Yet, they are not as radical as Cradle, and basically are not too different from the vanilla game, so they'd go in fine. |
Yeah I was thinking that too, but I think we should relook over each change to make sure. Personally I'd like to see some discussion on what changes are made, like for example in SAP2 the terrain values are changed, this might not sit well with people who want to see CtP2 exactly as it was with 1.11 but only with a better AI.
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Maquiladora
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quote:
I wouldn't think there are many of these people. Those who played CtP2 for a week and abandoned it because of poor AI won't know all the details. And they will want a balanced game when they come back, not a game that has exactly the same values as earlier. And it's a fact that with the science costs and terrain values of the original game, it's unbalancing. SAP2 seems to make that balance much better. Changes like that are exactly why I want it to be an official part of CtP2:AE, that would give it not only better AI, but also balance. |
I don't think we should jump the gun here and include all changes from SAP2 without looking at them all again individually. I need to look at SAP2 again but I particularly didn't like no production on beaches, although at one time I thought this was good in terms of realism, I think it was an unncessary change for realism and a big impact on gameplay that didn't need an impact.
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Maquiladora
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In what way?
When I mentioned this Peter made the point that the AI aims for the coast to settle and this would cripple its production. Although we can change what the AI decides now this would still weaken sea warfare. I see that beaches were the best tile in the game unmodded 10/10/10 but I think it's far too drastic an effect on gameplay to remove all production there.
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LDiCesare
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La Ferté sous Jouarre France
Jan 2001
time: 05:22
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I'd like to see a release. I downloaded the game files a few times since the start of the project but never played a lot with them because the vanilla game was still too much of the same and I couldn't run mods like Cradle.
If you decide to make a release and advertise it, you definitely need to join some files of SAP, either as part of the game or as a separate mod. (Note: I stopped playing because of crappy ai after all, though not after one week, and I later came back to the game thanks to mods).
[Edit]
Incorporating some kind of modswapper to the game itself would be a good thing to do too, by the way. Setting a list of mods in some menu, and requiring a mod to say which version it's compatible with so you can pick only those which can work?
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Martin Gühmann
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Berlin, Germany
Mar 2001
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Solver
Originally, the scenario selection screen was supposed to work like a built-in mod selector. I'm not sure how much of that code was changed, but at some point, the load scenario button would be sufficient. |
And it can be still used like this. However because the scenarios were buggy ModSwapper was introduced. However as far as I know there is still a little bug concerning quicksaves.
quote:
Originally posted by Maquiladora
quote:
Originally posted by Solver
I would strongly suggest that Apolyton Pack 2 + GoodMod text files go together as 'official' for CtP2:AE. The reasoning as as follows. These mods significantly improve the AI and add many nice feautures and impove game balance. Yet, they are not as radical as Cradle, and basically are not too different from the vanilla game, so they'd go in fine. |
I don't think we should jump the gun here and include all changes from SAP2 without looking at them all again individually. I need to look at SAP2 again but I particularly didn't like no production on beaches, although at one time I thought this was good in terms of realism, I think it was an unncessary change for realism and a big impact on gameplay that didn't need an impact. |
That's right we need to take a look on each change.
I also don't like the giant costs of the later advances in Apolyton Pack. Those costs makes it impossible to research the last advance without using scientists massivly. However specialists are too powerfull anyway.
Other files like APOL_pop.txt and APOL_wonder.txt just add an additional record just to fix bugs concerning the first record. I think these bugs have to fixed in the source instead of of worked around.
However the base of Apolyton CityMod2 is now in the latest release. The altered parchments shouldn't be included as the DiploManager should be redesigned and we have at least now some smal diplo photos in. Maybe we can use the altered build lists in GoodMod that actual comes from player1's "Mymod", the rest balancing the strategies.txt should we do on our own (in particular calvitex) as we have now the source code and can now know what's going on under the surface.
Another thing is the altered DiffDB.txt. The one of GoodMod is inspired of Cradle and gives mainly huge boni to the AI, well on impossible level that's ok, because it is impossible, but on the lower levels it should be managable, not so extreme.
Another point are the slic files in the end all this AI improving stuff belongs into the ctp2.exe itsself.
So far I think FrenzyAI can be replaced by what we have now. The commerce tile improvements for AIs slic is actual already in also there is still room for improvement. The fort for AIs slic must still be included. And here are two tasks to extend the borders of the empire to connect the various parts by roads and fortification of the borders. However the latter isn't actual really done by the GoodMod stuff.
And if we are talking about GoodMod we need then of course the new goods. And for that we would need something that can handle it that when a savegame is loaded and if some of the good indeces are screwed up, that this is corrected automaticly instead answered with a crash.
However one main point that must be included is a well improved AI, maybe there might then still room for further improvement when we release, but that is important that the AI is notably improved. And without that I would say no official release.
-Martin
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Solver
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Apolyton Duke Of Something
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Latvia, Riga
Sep 2000
time: 07:22
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AI improvement is important for the official release, and that's exactly why I think we want those mods included, although in a modified way if we need to. SAP and GoodMod SLIC additions make the AI more potent. Not the aggressive Cradle killing machine, but still potent enough to be a challenge. Ideally, I'd want an AI as powerful as in Cradle but without the dramatic Cradle changes, but that's different...
FrenzyAI is better left disabled. It's after all a very early script, and is buggy. Specifically what has annoyed me a lot, if a certain AI stack is set to attack you, it will do so when it can, even if you have ceasefire/peace. As a result, it would be nearly impossible to get out of war status once a war started, which largely killed the game.
Specialists are of course a separate balance issue, we'd have to really see about them and other balance changes. How about we start a new thread maybe for discussing the balance and AI changes we want in the official release, whenever it is?
By the way, gotta remember there was a bug with the playtests where you'd always lose the first advance in the advance.txt a turn after you get it.
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Martin Gühmann
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Berlin, Germany
Mar 2001
time: 06:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Solver
Are your suspicions on SLIC scipts interfering with those AI changes just suspicions or based on something? The way I see it, hard-coded AI routines in the .exe take precedence over whatever the SLIC codes dictate, but I may be wrong there. |
Sure it depends on the kind of slic code, for instance frenzy gives continuously move orders to the frenzied stacks, to make sure to overwrite everything, and Peter's airunit slic just deletes an airunit to create it in an AI base just to make sure that it returns on the same turn, actual that is cheating and since we have the source code it isn't necessary anymore. And also my better AI slic tries to rearange the armies, just to make sure that no settlers are in attack stacks, and that interferes with the NeedsEscord flag in the orders.txt. And finally the version of better AI that I released as unfinished work, controlls the AI and is in comparision to Cradle a real killing machine, if it shares with you the same continent.
-Martin
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calvitix
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Strasbourg (North-Est France)
Jun 2003
time: 05:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin Gühmann
However one main point that must be included is a well improved AI, maybe there might then still room for further improvement when we release, but that is important that the AI is notably improved. And without that I would say no official release.
-Martin |
Hi,
My work on AI isn't finished at all, I'm working on a new update, with Martin's requests, bug corrections and a better balance.
I think we have to wait a little until we have a stable AI.
(It works not bad for the moment, but I have several problems to correct before a release).
The problem with AI modifications (in source code and in txt files) is that it always implies a lot of consequences that are particullary difficult to test.
I alone can't find them all. So I'll ASAP post the new update (1.3), soucecodes and ctp2.exe too, so that all who want to help us by testing the new AI behavior can do it.
I have connection problem, so I'll be not very often in forums, but I'm still alive. (I'll a new connection in a week...)
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02-10-2004 16:54
. Are your suspicions on SLIC scipts interfering with those AI changes just suspicions or based on something? The way I see it, hard-coded AI routines in the .exe take precedence over whatever the SLIC codes dictate, but I may be wrong there.
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