06-10-2004 15:16									#61
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quote: There's a great deal of investigations being done by the US into the UN's obscene amount of corruption. We've already had some very interesting developments in the oil for food scandal, I doubt the corruption stops there. It's time to either take back the UN or disband it and get it off American soil.

And to echo: America is just sooooo much better isn't it. No corruption there. And what do you mean by take back the UN?

Can anyone tell me what nm stands for please?

	06-10-2004 16:11									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Guardian Ummm... Israeli officials are now saying that the object seen being loaded into a UN ambulance "might be a stretcher"... Source: BCC World News.

The BBC?! Why not just use al-jazeera, you terrorist sympathiser

	06-10-2004 16:25									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie The BBC?! Why not just use al-jazeera, you terrorist sympathiser

You might as well drop that "sympathiser".

	06-10-2004 16:28									#64
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quote: "Hey, whoops, did we blow up a bunch of kids again?? Ah... sorry about that..." *sniff* "Poor us..."

Let's not exaggerate...if Israel was isolated for that reason then everyone would hate any country involved in a war. People know that children die in Iraq, but they don't hate Americans because they realise that there's a 99% that it was accidental. People don't know Israelis at all so they usually can't give them a 'face'...thus they're inclined to believe Arafat and those like him. Perfect example is Jenin, where everyone thought there was a massacre of hundreds or thousands, when in reality about 60 people were killed (with more than half being terrorists).
Edited for bad taste in wording.

	06-10-2004 16:51									#65
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I didn't say they were isolated for that reason, but it does tend to annoy UN relief workers who happen to be around when the bombs go off. Hence, it might - to some extent - explain why said people are not too happy about Israeli military operations.

That doesn't mean they should let the other side use their ambulances though, but I've already covered that part.

	06-10-2004 17:27									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico People know that children die in Iraq, but they don't hate Americans because they realise that there's a 99% that it was accidental.

Actually, more than a few people don't realize that and more than a few people do hate America.

As for the "accidental" part... well, as someone once said in this forum,

quote: How far is "didn't mean to" from "didn't care" ?

I'm not saying I'm necessarily amongst them, but there are those who would argue that when you make a decision to drop bombs in an urban area, you have to know that such "accidents" will happen. So, when you know this and you still make the call, can you truly say it was an accident?

	06-10-2004 17:28									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico Let's not exaggerate...if Israel was isolated for that reason then everyone would hate any country involved in a war. People know that children die in Iraq, but they don't hate Americans because they realise that there's a 99% that it was accidental. People don't know Israelis at all so they usually can't give them a 'face'...thus they're inclined to believe Arafat and those like him. Perfect example is Jenin, where everyone thought there was a massacre of hundreds or thousands, when in reality about 60 people were killed (with more than half being terrorists). Edited for bad taste in wording.

well

let's say that america, if something goes wrong, has to answer for it's deeds to the american people (see vietnam).

now, why don't i see the same thing happening in israel ?
and when some of the people do react, why are depicted as vile subjects, traitors to the cause ?

it seems to me that israel is making a lot of those 'accidents' .

	06-10-2004 17:35									#68
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Actually, Israel has relatively few "accidents", statistically speaking.

It's just that they do a lot of shooting and a lot of shelling and a lot of bombing, so you keep hearing about their "accidents" pretty regularily.

	06-10-2004 19:36									#69
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"Israel cries wolf yet again. World totally deaf after continutal whine."

Well, must be kind of easy to make up a vehicle as UN owned. Or IDF owned for that matter.

Disgraceful, people not wearing bright uniforms with the words "cut here" tattooed across their throats.

	06-10-2004 19:49									#70
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After reading the responses on here from the Euroscum I can't help but wonder why they are so surprised we hate them and support Israel any day over them.

	06-10-2004 19:51									#71
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight After reading the responses on here from the Euroscum I can't help but wonder why they are so surprised we hate them and support Israel any day over them.

Why surprised? It's bad business sense to support your rivals.

Have a nice day.

	06-10-2004 22:10									#72
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Old Europe is nothing more than an ancient relic, a shadow of its former self. It is filled with weak, snivelling excuses for citizens. Amazing how during the cold war you were all for USA, and you were all for us going in and fighting Germany, but unless Europe is actually gaining something then they revert back to what they really are; crumbled empires that have no real voice in the world today. I guess it is only ok to remove tyrants and dictators when it directly affects the Euroscum. We shouldn't even be giving countries like France and Germany a chance to voice their opinion, and we should definitely be looking elsewhere for "allies".

	06-10-2004 22:20									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Zevico Perfect example is Jenin, where everyone thought there was a massacre of hundreds or thousands, when in reality about 60 people were killed (with more than half being terrorists).

I wouldn't mind a bit of clarification WRT this 'everyone' who believed a festering despot like Arafat.

	06-10-2004 22:48									#74
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It was a stretcher. One of those you can fold.

BBC says Israel is in full swing rowing back from the claim.

I think this calls for a formal apology.

	06-10-2004 23:03									#75
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Old Europe is nothing more than an ancient relic, a shadow of its former self. It is filled with weak, snivelling excuses for citizens. Amazing how during the cold war you were all for USA, and you were all for us going in and fighting Germany, but unless Europe is actually gaining something then they revert back to what they really are; crumbled empires that have no real voice in the world today.

I don't understand this argument at all. Why should anyone do anything if they thereby do not gain anything. As much as admire altruism, it is rarely found in foreign policy.
How much do you know about European-American relations during the Cold War?
Also if Europe does not have a say in the world, why are you so upset, if it says it won't do what you want it to do?
You kind of remind me of Hitler in his last days in the bunker. Incoherent and hysteric.

quote: I guess it is only ok to remove tyrants and dictators when it directly affects the Euroscum. We shouldn't even be giving countries like France and Germany a chance to voice their opinion, and we should definitely be looking elsewhere for "allies".

So it is not ok for France and Germany to disagree with you. You want little nations which you can bully into doing your bidding. And on the other hand you plan to withdraw troops from S. Korea and Japan. The latter have just stated that it cannot rely on the US for its protection.

	07-10-2004 00:23									#76
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quote: ... weak, snivelling excuses for citizens.

Yeah, that would be me You tell us ML, we are already trembling with fear...

To the other Americans, are you sure they don't mess with your drinking water?

	07-10-2004 01:11									#77
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quote: Originally posted by DinoDoc Especially when they have this proven factoid: http://www.mia.org.il/archive/010706ha_eng.html

	07-10-2004 01:34									#78
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quote: Old Europe is nothing more than an ancient relic, a shadow of its former self. It is filled with weak, snivelling excuses for citizens. Amazing how during the cold war you were all for USA, and you were all for us going in and fighting Germany, but unless Europe is actually gaining something then they revert back to what they really are; crumbled empires that have no real voice in the world today. I guess it is only ok to remove tyrants and dictators when it directly affects the Euroscum. We shouldn't even be giving countries like France and Germany a chance to voice their opinion, and we should definitely be looking elsewhere for "allies".

aaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgggggggggghhhhhhhhh

Your berating Europe for subscribing to a realist perspective when America is one of the most realist countries still around? Pity Europe sticks to the ideals that it suggested of self-determination and non-interference and doesn't try to impose its will on every country it tries to think it's better than. But anywho, just remember that oneday your 'wonderful' empire will crash, as all tend to do.

	07-10-2004 02:16									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber UN admits it has a videotape of soldiers' kidnap Defense Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer yesterday announced that United Nations officials last Friday acknowledged the existence of a video tape with information on the kidnapping of three IDF soldiers by Hezbollah guerrillas at Har Dov on October 7, 2000. Israeli security sources suspect the tape has scenes recorded immediately after the abduction. In a strongly worded letter, the government demanded that the United Nations immediately transfer the tape to Israel.

Why would a UN acknowledgement have to go through the Israeli defence minister? Is it then a proper acknowledgement, or is it hearsay?

	07-10-2004 02:21									#80
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Why does it say they acknowledge the existence of the tape rather than the posession? Anyone can acknowledge the tape exists, doesn't mean they have it...

	07-10-2004 11:17									#81
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Old Europe is nothing more than an ancient relic, a shadow of its former self. It is filled with weak, snivelling excuses for citizens. Amazing how during the cold war you were all for USA, and you were all for us going in and fighting Germany, but unless Europe is actually gaining something then they revert back to what they really are; crumbled empires that have no real voice in the world today. I guess it is only ok to remove tyrants and dictators when it directly affects the Euroscum. We shouldn't even be giving countries like France and Germany a chance to voice their opinion, and we should definitely be looking elsewhere for "allies".

Oh, so we don't do anything unless we stand to gain from it?

Well, LOOK WHO'S TALKING!

Look, we didn't get you into this mess, you did that perfectly fine on your own. We tried to warn you about some of the problems you'd face, but you couldn't be bothered to listen to anyone except yourselves. -And now you're mad at us because you're actually facing some of the problems we tried to warn you about!

Well, fine, be that way. And keep looking elsewhere for "allies".
Just keep in mind that if that's the way you insist on going, then it's only a matter of time before there won't be any elsewhere left to look.

	07-10-2004 15:08									#82
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Analysis / How Israel created another PR disaster

By Aluf Benn
Haaretz

Israel's humiliation in the affair of UNRWA's alleged "Qassam ambulance" came from two blunders - the improper use of intelligence material for public relations, and the desire of senior Foreign Ministry officials to "settle accounts" with UNRWA director Peter Hansen, whom they view as hostile.

Those in charge of Israeli public relations, led by Foreign Ministry deputy director general Gideon Meir, have been urging the defense establishment since the start of the intifada to "launder" intelligence material, especially photographs and film, to help Israel's case. Shin Bet chief Avi Dichter and Yossi Kuperwasser, the head of the Military Intelligence research division, are more willing than their predecessors to do so.

But this carries the risk of intelligence officers trying to please their political masters. Intelligence is not an exact science and there is much leeway for interpretation. Propaganda on the other hand needs sharp messages with no room for shades of gray.

When intelligence material becomes public relations material, interpretations vanish and all is black and white. This is precisely what happened to American intelligence on chemical and biological weapons in Iraq.

The IDF yesterday confirmed that intelligence professionals were divided over the identity of the object a video from Gaza showed being loaded into a UN ambulance - it could be a weapon, it could be a stretcher. But when the film was "laundered" into PR fodder, the dispute disappeared. Television viewers were told it was a Qassam rocket.

The IDF is "investigating" - as it always is - but it is unlikely ever to answer a really troubling question - did innocent Palestinians ever pay with their lives for the mistaken identity of an unclear photograph.

The current affair was born at last Thursday's cabinet meeting, which approved Operation Days of Penitence. The cabinet decided to explain the operation in advance, before its legitimacy was questioned overseas, and a committee of IDF and Foreign Ministry officials, headed by cabinet secretary Israel Maimon, was set up for this purpose.

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon ordered Dichter and Chief of Staff Moshe Ya'alon to "give them material, such as photographs," because "we need it for public relations."

The IDF supplied the goods on Friday afternoon, and the "Qassam ambulance" film was shown on the evening news. Meir heard about it and realized this was his chance to "get Hansen" for his hostile remarks after the battle of Jenin in April 2002, and for the fact that a UN ambulance was used to deliver body parts of slain Israeli soldiers to terrorist organizations in May (UNRWA claimed the driver was under duress).

Meir thought the film would finally prove Israel's contention that UNRWA facilities serve terrorists. His notion culminated in an official letter of complaint from UN Ambassador Danny Gillerman to UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan.

The letter was phrased with diplomatic caution, but in media interviews, Gillerman demanded Hansen's dismissal. Foreign Ministry officials were already aware of IDF doubts on Sunday but Gillerman still delivered the letter on Monday.

Annan responded by ordering an immediate investigation. Usually, the UN moves slowly and the rapid response indicates that someone recognized a chance to put Israel in its place. However, now Israel hopes to use the inquiry panel's broad mandate to air all its grievances about UNRWA's alleged connections with terror.

But Israel is also in damage control and the price, as usual, will be paid by the intelligence services. After this mistake, who will ever believe Israel's "photographic evidence" against the Palestinians - or the Syrians or Iranians?

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/485486.html

	07-10-2004 15:31									#83
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight Old Europe is nothing more than an ancient relic, a shadow of its former self. It is filled with weak, snivelling excuses for citizens. Amazing how during the cold war you were all for USA, and you were all for us going in and fighting Germany, but unless Europe is actually gaining something then they revert back to what they really are; crumbled empires that have no real voice in the world today. I guess it is only ok to remove tyrants and dictators when it directly affects the Euroscum. We shouldn't even be giving countries like France and Germany a chance to voice their opinion, and we should definitely be looking elsewhere for "allies".

What a marvellous troll, clean and flawless.

Yea, look elsewhere, and don't let the door hit you. I recommend General Musharraf, he's a true democrat, has no WMDs, never harbored or armed terrorists and is loved by his people. He fits well as ally of your empire. He and your fearless leader share the same mindset. Or take the house Saud, the paragon of freedom and tolerance.

Oh and by the way: You forgot Poland!

	07-10-2004 17:57									#84
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Sir Ralph

	07-10-2004 18:46									#85
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quote: now, why don't i see the same thing happening in israel ?

Because you don't read Israeli newspapers and have no Israeli friends?

Israelis are very critical about IDF accidents, but, there are other things in play here: You allow yourself to be pretty judgemental of IDF actions, because you are safely away from the reach of Palestinian terrorists. Israelis are not.

For instance lets take the following horrendous mistake:

A little girl on her way to school wandered close to an army post. The soldiers yelled at her to stop at her tracks. She apparently panicked, threw school bag and began running away.

Now, at this point I mention that several times now, Hamas and Al-Aqsa used children to carry bomb charges and to bring them close to IDF posts and check points.

As a result of this, and seeing how the girl threw the bag near them and began to flee - The soldiers panicked, and began shooting at the girl and the bag, killing her.

Now, the result is that an innocent school girl is dead, simply because she was wrongly suspected. But these cases happenned before.

Frankly, were I a soldier in an outpost, where such cases occured, I'd be freaking scared of getting bombed. And I don't know if I would have not shot. Now the people that serve in such posts and checkpoints tend to be... dumb. The smarter people in IDF go to desk jobs or special forces, and the dumber get to be the regular grunts. The especially dumbest get to be Border Patrol guards.

Just two weeks ago, the police arrested a group of BP guards, after it managed to uncover they abused and harassed innocent palestinian civilians.

	07-10-2004 19:15									#86
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Why Siro chose to make a thread about this incident and not at least include the one I posted in which the UN actively aided terrorists in Lebanon I'll never know.

	07-10-2004 19:16									#87
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if this is true and there actually is a public uproar, why then is it that the same people still govern your country ? elections can be a very powerful thing.

PS

the same thing can be said of the palestinian 'authority'. they're also a bunch of scumbags who rather see their own people die than lift a finger to do something about this situation which apparently suits them well.

I frankly don't care anymore what happens in your country. but if you keep pulling this kind of stunts nobody will listen to you anymore when you really gonna need it.

	07-10-2004 19:30									#88
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov For instance lets take the following horrendous mistake: A little girl on her way to school wandered close to an army post. The soldiers yelled at her to stop at her tracks. She apparently panicked, threw school bag and began running away. Now, at this point I mention that several times now, Hamas and Al-Aqsa used children to carry bomb charges and to bring them close to IDF posts and check points. As a result of this, and seeing how the girl threw the bag near them and began to flee - The soldiers panicked, and began shooting at the girl and the bag, killing her. Now, the result is that an innocent school girl is dead, simply because she was wrongly suspected. But these cases happenned before.

Just out of curiousity, what happened to the soldier? Is he charged for murder, or rewarded for bravery?

	07-10-2004 19:39									#89
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And who is at fault here? The soldiers for firing on her or the terrorists for using children and women to kill people?

	07-10-2004 19:44									#90
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight And who is at fault here? The soldiers for firing on her or the terrorists for using children and women to kill people?

Even IF she would have carried explosives (although the chance for it is slim), firing at the bag is just plain stupid, since it can only make the bomb blow up earlier. Firing at an obviously unarmed (mind you the "bomb" has already been thrown away) girl is cold blooded murder, and the soldier who committed this is not a jota better than the terrorists.