07-10-2004 19:55									#91
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Given that the most obvious command from someone trying to take in a terrorist or criminal would be to drop their weapon or potential weapons, the girl did exactly the right thing to drop it, but not to run away. I would presume it is Israeli protocol to shoot suspected terrorists first, ask question later, even if they're little children.

Last edited by Gibsie on 07-10-2004 at 20:01

	07-10-2004 20:04									#92
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How easy it is to attack Israel when you aren't dealing with people blowing up your buses. But, then again, even if you were to be attacked Europe isn't exactly known for fighting back. Just look at Spain. Spain is a good example of how weak Europe has become. If they had done that in the US, we'd hunt them down and kill them one by one, and then we'd go after where they came from.

	07-10-2004 20:08									#93
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight If they had done that in the US, we'd hunt them down and kill them one by one, and then we'd go after where they came from.

Remind me how Osama Bin Laden was executed. I seem to have forgotten it, since it's so long ago. Was it the electric chair, or lethal injection?

	07-10-2004 20:29									#94
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We've killed everyone around him, we'll find him too. And don't think we're going to stop with Iraq. Iran and Syria will be next. We won't stop until every terrorist is dead.

	07-10-2004 20:55									#95
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ah, i'm glad we weak europeans have somebody strong like you to watch over us...

erm... you're not even in the army right ?

	07-10-2004 21:04									#96
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight We've killed everyone around him, we'll find him too. And don't think we're going to stop with Iraq. Iran and Syria will be next. We won't stop until every terrorist is dead.

Good idea. The world will love you for it. Especially your ally Tony "brown tongue" Bliar, who can as always be sure of the support of the warlike British people.

I have a hint: The city of Hamburg had harbored the September 11th terrorists for a long time and disguised them as "students". You should firebomb Hamburg. Oh wait, this was already done. Never mind.

Next: They learned flight in a school in Florida. FLORIDA IS HARBORING TERRORIST CAMPS, who would've thunk it... Nuke Florida!

	07-10-2004 21:07									#97
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quote: Originally posted by MalevolentLight We've killed everyone around him, we'll find him too. And don't think we're going to stop with Iraq. Iran and Syria will be next. We won't stop until every terrorist is dead.

Will you finish with seppuku?

	08-10-2004 07:27									#98
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quote: if this is true and there actually is a public uproar, why then is it that the same people still govern your country ?

I'm not sure to whcih case you are relating to, but in any case, Sharon isn't responsible for any of the bad cases.

Israelis don't go thinking "well, this innocent girl died in a terrible accident, so lets rethink our whole political agenda and fire our prime minister".

Israelis try to judge the agenda according to long term effects, for instance:- in 2002 there were 3 terrorist attacks per day. IDF invaded the west bank. in 2004 there were hardly 3 major terrorist attacks in the entire year. This makes Israelis support the IDF policy.

I mean, sure its regrettable that innocent palestinians die, but as long as we are sure it isn't done on purpose, Israelis will tend to preserve their own lives.

It eventually boiles down to the question: would you prefer 20 dead palestinians to 10 dead israelis. And for the Israelis the choise is quite clear. Its not an easy choise, but when you are at risk - you choose well.

quote: Given that the most obvious command from someone trying to take in a terrorist or criminal would be to drop their weapon or potential weapons, the girl did exactly the right thing to drop it, but not to run away. I would presume it is Israeli protocol to shoot suspected terrorists first, ask question later, even if they're little children.

Look, I knew that this case is very bad PR when I brought it up and I could have not done so. so I'm asking you to stop abusing it, and try to understand what happenned, instead of trolling or "points scoring".

now a serious answer
There have been numerous cases recently where terrorist organziations attempted to use small children to carry and even explode bomb charges, hidden on their body and in their bags.

now, imagine that you have caught 2 children with bombs on them.

Suddenly you see a child carrying a big bag, throw it towards you and then runs away. You'd immediately fear that this is a bomb.

Now, the choise made by the soldiers was a bad one. Even if it were a bomb, them shooting at her would have done absolutely no good.

But when you think you are in a life threat, your judgement changes.

Obviously the soldiers who have done this are wrong and are trigger happy.

But I can't promise you that I would have made a different judgement, and I think that if you look at it frankly, you can't be sure you'd behave differently too.


Its all rosy and nice to imagine how you'd save the day, and walk up to that girl and ask her name, and see what is in her bag. But its not real. You're afraid and you know that you are targetted daily. So you often make rash decisions. Whcih sometimes save your life. And sometimes are just "rash".

quote: Even IF she would have carried explosives (although the chance for it is slim), firing at the bag is just plain stupid, since it can only make the bomb blow up earlier. Firing at an obviously unarmed (mind you the "bomb" has already been thrown away) girl is cold blooded murder, and the soldier who committed this is not a jota better than the terrorists.

Again that a nice analysis from a laid back position from thousands of miles away.

Back in there, you see a person running towards you, throwing a (perceived) bomb at you, and running away. You open fire.

Its not a "smart" or "rational" decision. Its a wrong decision made out of stress and fear. Its definitly not murder. murder is when the soldiers say "hmm, lets kill an innocent palestinian girl". Here the soldiers thought "eek, someone threw a bomb on me" and fired away.

I'm not saying they should be rewarded for bravery. I'm not saying they shouldn't get punished. I'm just explaining that it is a very difficult situation for soldiers. You need to make life/death decisions on the spot, and a wrong decision can make you die.

Usually, the soldier would just see a shadow sneaking towards the post, and will have a blink of an eye to decide if this shadow is likely to start shooting at him. Its an ugly decision, but in war it is made alot.

ps:
on a personal note, dannubis, this seems like the first time you're not trying to make bald accusations about Israel, but are attempting a serious exchange of views. I'd appreciate if this continues.

	08-10-2004 16:48									#99
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quote: [SIZE=1] Originally posted by Sirotnikov Back in there, you see a person running towards you, throwing a (perceived) bomb at you, and running away. You open fire.

According to your first post she was not "running", but "wandering" and yelled at by foreign, heavily armed soldiers. There's a bit of a difference.

quote: Its not a "smart" or "rational" decision. Its a wrong decision made out of stress and fear. Its definitly not murder. murder is when the soldiers say "hmm, lets kill an innocent palestinian girl". Here the soldiers thought "eek, someone threw a bomb on me" and fired away.

Fine, charge them for manslaughter. That's the least I would accept. "Oops, sorry, but **** happens" or three days arrest in the barracks will not do.

quote: I'm not saying they should be rewarded for bravery. I'm not saying they shouldn't get punished. I'm just explaining that it is a very difficult situation for soldiers. You need to make life/death decisions on the spot, and a wrong decision can make you die.

In this case, the wrong decision made a child die. The difference is? Oh, I see, she is Palestinian. Never mind. You are right, **** happens.

As long as things like this happen and the murderers get away with a shrug, you have no chance at getting peace and the murder will continue, at both sides. The earlier you get this in your stubborn skulls, the better.

	08-10-2004 18:05									#100
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quote: According to your first post she was not "running", but "wandering" and yelled at by foreign, heavily armed soldiers. There's a bit of a difference.

That's what I read in the first news stories about this. It still doesn't matter because soldiers are told to shoot at anyone who comes closer than several hundreds meters from the post.

quote: Fine, charge them for manslaughter. That's the least I would accept. "Oops, sorry, but **** happens" or three days arrest in the barracks will not do.

Look I realize you have very high moral standards. But this just doesn't work in a war.

If you start punishing soldiers for every mitaken judgement they make, you will neuter them. Are you seriously suggesting that every wrong judgement in a war will be investigated?

On one hand soldiers fear death and need to protect their lives from attacks. On the other hand, they will now be very hesitant to open fire at all. Its dead if you don't and damned if you do.

quote: In this case, the wrong decision made a child die. The difference is? Oh, I see, she is Palestinian. Never mind. You are right, **** happens.

It seems you're trying to present this as a racist thing and it isn't.

As I said, it boils down to "us vs. them" attitude in a war.

I prefer 10 innocent enemies to die in bad decisions, over 1 person from my side. I don't care about innocent people from both sides of the conflict equally. I'm a part of the conflict - I can't allow myself to be neutral.

Obviously I don't condone mass slaughters and such.

However, when an Israeli soldier is in doubt, and fears for his life - I prefer him to shoot and stay alive, than hesitate and risk being killed. Even at the expense of enemy lives. That's war.


Are you seriously suggesting that every soldier that ever took a swift decision that turned out to be bad should be punished for it?

Can you imagine how many soldiers in WWII on the allied side would that put in jail? Probably all of them.

You are sending soldiers to deal with a life threat and ask them to risk their lives, to defend you at home. And now you want to neuter their ability to self-defend against enemies?

------------


In any case, our arguement has gone beyond the events of this case and is now theoretical and deals with war morality.


This case, is turning out to involve clear murder. Let me update you of new developements:

The Israeli newspapers pressed for an investigation and interviewed soldiers from the post about the incident.

It appears that when the shooting began, some of the soldiers in a frontal post had already identified the girl and thought she was innocent, but the shooting came from different positions within the post.

Later, a group together with a commander approached closer, and shot the girl again, while she was already down, and apparently already dead.

The soldier interviewed said they were in shock from the action, and couldn't stop talking about it after that.

The newspapers are calling for an investigation and trial of said commander and soldiers, and its the second largest story after the triple terrorist attack in Egypt last night.

	08-10-2004 18:07									#101
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quote: As long as things like this happen and the murderers get away with a shrug, you have no chance at getting peace and the murder will continue, at both sides. The earlier you get this in your stubborn skulls, the better.

I wish you were right. I wish that if Israelis suddenly were the most trusting people in the world and did everything in a naive manner, problems would just disappear. It'd make this ****ed up world all so much easier to think about. But that's not reality. Reality is where hatreds run deep. Reality is a place where religious fanatics swear eternal war and condemn their children to it. Reality is a place filled with twisted, twisted people who care more for their own power than other's wellbeing. You know that, Sir Ralph. Don't say you would be surprised if Hamas kept brainwashing palestinians after a 'peace treaty'. Don't say you would be surprised if the PA kept on encouraging it as they have. That's the way this world works. There is no simple 'be nice' solution, as much as we both would wish it to be different.

	08-10-2004 20:06									#102
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Yeah, but irrational acts like shooting 15 year-old girls in the head isn't just "not nice", it's complete insanity.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/St...1320735,00.html

	09-10-2004 04:23									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Sirotnikov I prefer 10 innocent enemies to die in bad decisions, over 1 person from my side. I don't care about innocent people from both sides of the conflict equally. I'm a part of the conflict - I can't allow myself to be neutral.

I am sorry to hear this, but then, it does not surprise me the least. Your wording "innocent enemy" already shows your mindset. If innocent Palestinians are your enemies, I need no further explanation.

quote: Are you seriously suggesting that every soldier that ever took a swift decision that turned out to be bad should be punished for it?

In a country, that claims to be a democracy, yes.

quote: In any case, our arguement has gone beyond the events of this case and is now theoretical and deals with war morality. This case, is turning out to involve clear murder. Let me update you of new developements: The Israeli newspapers pressed for an investigation and interviewed soldiers from the post about the incident. It appears that when the shooting began, some of the soldiers in a frontal post had already identified the girl and thought she was innocent, but the shooting came from different positions within the post. Later, a group together with a commander approached closer, and shot the girl again, while she was already down, and apparently already dead. The soldier interviewed said they were in shock from the action, and couldn't stop talking about it after that. The newspapers are calling for an investigation and trial of said commander and soldiers, and its the second largest story after the triple terrorist attack in Egypt last night.

Bravo! Could be one step in the right direction. If there are investigations and an appropriate trial, that is. It would be a clear sign, that neither side can get away with murder, neither the Palestinians, nor the Israelis. It is justice towards everyone, what will give you moral highground. Selfishness will not get you anywhere.

Let us hope, that it will not be swept under the rug, although chances for this are big.

	11-10-2004 14:19									#104
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quote: Originally posted by Gibsie Yeah, but irrational acts like shooting 15 year-old girls in the head isn't just "not nice", it's complete insanity. http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/St...1320735,00.html

Well, these girls both had it coming. It says right there in your article that one was baking bread and the other was sweeping a floor. Clearly, they were extremely dangerous terrorists that had to be eliminated before innocent people got hurt.

	12-10-2004 09:30									#105
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quote: It would be a clear sign, that neither side can get away with murder, neither the Palestinians, nor the Israelis.

Huh?

How does it sign that the Palestinians don't get away with murder?

They usually do.

There are dozens of terrorist groups responsible for dead Israelis that we aren't even close to capturing.

And the PA does nothing to confront them - infact it poots fighting Israel in the concensus.

So how the heck are you giving both sides the same grade?

	12-10-2004 12:43									#106
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Please. Not the whiney "Look, they are just as bad". You disappoint me. Hamas, Jihad and alike are criminals. Nobody expects from them other than to commit felonies. They are dangerous, murderous bastards. If you want to put yourself in the same league, it's your decision. You claim to be a democracy, and a society, that respects human rights. Nobody will believe you that, unless you behave appropriately. "They are just as bad and we kill for self-defense" will not do as excuse. There is no excuse for murder.

One more remark to your above post:

quote: quote: In this case, the wrong decision made a child die. The difference is? Oh, I see, she is Palestinian. Never mind. You are right, **** happens. It seems you're trying to present this as a racist thing and it isn't.

If I wanted to present it as "racist", I would have written "brown people". Your next sentences...

quote: As I said, it boils down to "us vs. them" attitude in a war. I prefer 10 innocent enemies to die in bad decisions, over 1 person from my side. I don't care about innocent people from both sides of the conflict equally. I'm a part of the conflict - I can't allow myself to be neutral.

...prove me right. Her death means not much to you because she is Palestinian. And as you say, Palestinians are your enemies, guilty or innocent.

	12-10-2004 18:33									#107
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Here's an update on the story with the 13 year old.
It seems the soldiers are refusing to serve under the officer who they say kept shooting at the girl after she was down.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/St...1325307,00.html

	12-10-2004 18:42									#108
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Latest:

11 year old girl shot in the stomach and critically wounded inside a UN school in Gaza.

Last month, a 10 year old girl was killed by IDF gunfire while sitting at her desk at the same school.

The UNRWA is accusing the IDF of firing indiscriminately in crowded areas. Israel accuses the militants of using populated areas for cover and endangering the lives of civilians. Israel also accuses UNRWA of being unfairly biased and says UN employees aid Palestinian militants.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/487788.html



Edit: Updated the story with new info. (It now says "11 year old girl hit inside UN school" instead of "10 year old girl hit outside school".)

Last edited by Guardian on 12-10-2004 at 19:09

	12-10-2004 19:03									#109
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In other news from the Middle East, a 26 year old Palestinian farmer working in his olive grove in the Nablus region was shot in the neck and critically wounded as a group of settlers from the settlement of Yitzhar tried to chase away the farmers from the groves.

IDF troops were called in to break up the fight between the settlers and the farmers. The Palestinian farmers claim a settler dressed in black knelt down, took aim and fired at the unarmed farmer while a soldier stood right next to him and did nothing to prevent the shooting.

Three of the settlers who had scuffled with the Palestinians were supposedly later detained by IDF soldiers.

IDF officers say they are expecting an escalation in violence in the Samaria region because of the settlers' attacks on the Palestinians.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/...22&contrassID=1

	14-10-2004 20:19									#110
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I don't know if this has been posted already, but...

The IDF now says those things carried by workers as seen in a surveillance footage are stretchers, not rockets.