07-10-2004 18:34									#31
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar Assuming they just spontaneously decided to buy the PC themselves as opposed to save money over time and (mostly) ask others for funds, your correct

Er, you ask others for funds for your PC, and then DL games? Who gives you funds for a PC - i have to buy mine. Perhaps these folks could help fund my new PC huh? And you can spend almost $400 for games and you NEED to DL others? Look, you got enough games. Play em. You run out of games to play, go out and plant a garden or something. Maybe do something nice for the people who funded your PC. Dont need to pirate games.

	07-10-2004 23:50									#32
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I think most of us wouldn't mind paying more for good value games.

Its just that when the majority of releases aren't of a good standard or value, and we go out and loyally buy one after another; it just begins to annoy you.
So you buy less until you here the word on some game forums. Pirates pirate more etc - everyone loses.

	08-10-2004 00:07									#33
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I remeber when some console games used to cost £50+ back when cartridges were in. Street Fighter:SE cost £60 for the Mega Drive here when it was released.

The only game I'd even consider buying in the near future is Pro Evolution Soccer 4 because I know for sure I'll get hundreds of hours out of it, I could d/l it easy enough though.

	08-10-2004 00:59									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think the current push of console's into the gaming market may be an attempt to get back to the 'cartridge' days of the old consoles.
The PC is endanger of being left out in the cold in this brave new world. Not that i'm saying the PC is doomed - its much to versitile for that, but the angle the games market seems to be coming from is very pro-console, many new games are being made with the console in mind, sometimes at the cost of dumbing down(Dues ex/Theif - deadly shadows/Fallout tactics etc).

@Maq i liked your sig so i adapted it

	08-10-2004 01:11									#35
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I think most of us wouldn't mind paying more for good value games. Its just that when the majority of releases aren't of a good standard or value, and we go out and loyally buy one after another; it just begins to annoy you. So you buy less until you here the word on some game forums. Pirates pirate more etc - everyone loses.

That gets to the old question of whether quality has declined. Which is a difficult one cause A. It varies by genre. B. It varies with what aspects of a game are important to you C. I think some folks remember the great games, and forget all the trash that was out there. D. It depends on what you use as a baseline.

Still, IF (as the article stated, and i dont see anyone really disputing it) the price of games has been steady, that means a decrease after inflation. All that theyre talking about is raising prices to offset that. I dont see that they need to INCREASE quality to justify that.

And yeah, sure an increase in price means a decline in purchases - thats just a standard downward sloping demand curve. Doesnt mean prices should never increase. The flip side is what happens to the marginal developers and publishers.

	08-10-2004 01:17									#36
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quote: Originally posted by child of Thor I think most of us wouldn't mind paying more for good value games. Its just that when the majority of releases aren't of a good standard or value, and we go out and loyally buy one after another; it just begins to annoy you.

well if you do that, no wonder they keep publishing poor quality games. Unless youre buying them the day they come out it seems pretty silly, given the profusion of sources on any game right after its release. Take RomeTW for example - several threads on CSIPGS, on Quartertothree, and even here its managed to breakthrough the morass of forum games. If I were to buy RTW it would hardly be a gamble.

	08-10-2004 02:20									#37
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@LotM,

True, but we(as in forum folk) are a minority in terms of percentage of game purchases. So i was speaking more about an 'average' gamer, who really only might see a game on the cover of a magazine in a newsagents or on the store shelves of the game shop. If i was that guy i'd be getting very fed up.

We all started like that at some point - Poly was the first game forum i'd ever used, that was a few years ago, and i've been playing since 1981. I'm a wiser gamer for it, but in no way a typical gamer.

And we need to keep in mind that we(forum/hardcore gamers whatever) are not the main target audience anyore, well not for the most part. That must have an effect on the markets directions and game producers decisions.

There have always been awful games, hopefully there always will be, we need a laugh from time to time, BUT a theme that a few of us have touched on here is i think an important one.

Some of those few good games from ages past are actualy still really good games now.

many of todays releases dont seem to offer that, which is a shame for gamers.

Now charging us more for these decent but maybe not classic games might not be the right strategy to take. Maybe they should concentrate on making good value games, ones that offer a bit of good old decent replay value, ones where not everything is given up to eye candy at the expense of other aspects of the game.

To much to ask? I'm afraid most probably so - thats how the trend of games making seems to have been going for some time, and with the current producers it wont change anytime soon. I personaly think its just a phase we have to all go through(the players+the makers), and once the madness is over we will all get to a better place

	08-10-2004 02:55									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: @Maq i liked your sig so i adapted it

! Still Id rather own a Lemur than a cat tbh.

quote: The PC is endanger of being left out in the cold in this brave new world. Not that i'm saying the PC is doomed - its much to versitile for that, but the angle the games market seems to be coming from is very pro-console, many new games are being made with the console in mind, sometimes at the cost of dumbing down(Dues ex/Theif - deadly shadows/Fallout tactics etc).

Especially with hard drives in consoles now, although I dont think console-only gamers will ever think much of a mouse and keyboard for playing games, so a few genres are safe for mainly PC there.

As for raising prices they'll make absolutely no difference to me. If my ability to download games was taken away tomorrow I wouldn't buy any games from proper retailers I'd go and buy them copied off the market for £5 or not at all. I refuse to pay £35 a game that isnt finished most of the time.

	08-10-2004 03:25									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Ninja Gaiden 1995

I'm talking about the new one, released earlier this year.

quote: With the exception of Ninja Gaiden, these games are newer than 3 years and, thus, one cannot derive any improvement trends from them

I think you totally misunderstood my point. I KNOW they are all new games. That was my point. They are just as good as any of the 'classics' of years past, meaning that games are not declining in quality.

quote: Once Morrowind oblivion comes out (2 years is plenty of time, despite what you say - though what you say invalidates your own argument) we can analyze whether the series has gotten better or worse. A fair comparison can be made between a Prequal and Sequal that is much harder to make between two unrelated games.

Then why not compare Arena or Daggerfall with Morrowind? I'd pick Morrowind, personally.

	08-10-2004 05:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Then why not compare Arena or Daggerfall with Morrowind? I'd pick Morrowind, personally.

Daggerfall was a revolutionary experience back when it first came out. Morrowind is an evolution, as it's just Daggerfall with stuff changed around, not necessarily better or worse(except in superficials like graphics). Sure in absolute terms Morrowind is better but if you are taking into consideration when they are released it's clear Daggerfall is the much better game. Daggerfall also offers unlimited replayability something Morrowind does not.

In regards to the article I don't really care if prices go up. The last game I bought with my own money was maybe EU2? and that was less than $40. I wouldn't mind paying a bit more but most games today are not worth it at all. The problem really is you don't know how much a game is worth until you play it. Demos don't really help anymore since they are either not done or done as an after thought. Even quality games usually have bad demos now. This is part of the reason why I warez some games to try them. Also it really makes sense to warez them. Most demos today are practically as big as ripped warez versions and I really don't care to see the ripped stuff anyways as it's usually 200mb opening/closing movies.

The truth is most games today are not being made for me. I am from a different era when gameplay was king. Today shiny graphics and good presentation is more important. Good example is Daggerfall vs Morrowind. Many gamers today love Morrowind but probably can't stand Daggerfall because of it's dated look. I have more fun with user made projects usually be it mods or open source games because they share my ideas on design. Even game companies I used to literally worship seem to have changed their ideas on good games be it id or Sid Meier. I will always have Doom 2, and Quakeworld because they are still being developed by the open source community and my old games are not going anywhere.

I will still buy quality games. I have a few console games I've been meaning to buy(most are Japanese made as they still seem to value gameplay) but haven't gotten around to it yet. This is mainly because I've been playing open source games or old games I already own. I don't see many games in the future I'm interested in. MMORPGs are all trash to best be avoided and they now seem to gobble up the majority of game development money for PC games.

Games aren't like books or movies. They are more like music to me. I find some I like and I keep playing them just like music I keep listening to. Once I play a game the subsequent clones are less attractive even if done well. I already played the original and most "evolutions" of the genre are not better just merely changed. Look at Quake 1 through 3. Quake 1 is the best IMO because 2 and 3 just changed things around. The core gameplay is the same. I almost always like originals best and few game today can claim to be original. You may think the problem is my tastes but in the future the same thing is going to happened to the gamers who first started gaming today. They may even go back and find the originals play better like some gamers I know(my younger brother is good example).

	08-10-2004 07:58									#41
	Got spare money?

another thing i dont get. All those of you who pirate big publisher games cause "theyre not good enough" why dont you buy games from independents, or get open source games, or whatever. If the big name games are so bad, why do you pirate them in lieu of supporting something new?

	08-10-2004 08:01									#42
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quote: I don't see many games in the future I'm interested in. MMORPGs are all trash to best be avoided and they now seem to gobble up the majority of game development money for PC games.

well lets see the MMORPG cos get revenue when they sell the game, PLUS they get subscription fees. Even pirates have to pay. And theres nothing equivalent on the console. and its a big market. No wonder theyre making em.

	08-10-2004 09:12									#43
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quote: Sure in absolute terms Morrowind is better but if you are taking into consideration when they are released it's clear Daggerfall is the much better game.

Daggerfall was a buggy mess... I could hardly play it. Perhaps that colored my view of it .

	08-10-2004 12:43									#44
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quote: The truth is most games today are not being made for me. I am from a different era when gameplay was king.

Although to be fair, when gameplay was king the gameplay was fairly simple, and presentation wasnt really great either, you got a flashing screen with 8 colours one at the start and one when you completed it. Look at some Japanese games today, you can tell theyve been playtested to eternity sometimes, they ooze quality, but even those come with big opening FMV sequences now.

quote: I will still buy quality games. I have a few console games I've been meaning to buy(most are Japanese made as they still seem to value gameplay)

Once I heard Sega Europe was turning down games like Radiant Silvergun, Strikers 1945 and Dracula X because "you only need to hold down one button" (wrong anyway), I knew the European and US console game market was ready to be flushed with sequels and basic remakes with only enhanced graphics all over again.

	08-10-2004 14:22									#45
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark another thing i dont get. All those of you who pirate big publisher games cause "theyre not good enough" why dont you buy games from independents, or get open source games, or whatever. If the big name games are so bad, why do you pirate them in lieu of supporting something new?

I can't answer as a regular pirate,(but i am feeling guilty over 'finding' the xcom games for free, even though i have bought them twice in the past) so i'll add i think when we've had conversations about pirating in the past, many of the guys here seem to use a pirate download to 'test' the game first, then if they like it they go and buy it.
I'm more anti than pro pirate in my sympathies, but as roughly 90% of pc games dont even bother to release a demo these days, that seems a fair argument from a consumer point of view, especialy in light of some of the other points above(like being burned many times with naf games etc).

And having just read that article you posted - the talk about 'next generation of machines' seems to indicate that it is again the console area that is driving the market, and the article about price increases.

PC user's and many of the games they will be getting in the future will become an after thought by many publishers, atleast that's what it feels like might happen.
Pirating is probably a big part of the reason for this pro-console approach. Still i think the industry is just taking the easy option, a short term fix for a wider problem, and this 'grab the cash quick' attitude may solve financing problems in the short-term, but in the long term they will just end up with a load of 'casual/sunday' gamers that wont spend their $70 a game anymore - they'll find something more entertaining to do, not being avid gamers like many of us old school pc users are.

So its all short term thinking driving game development at the momment, and eventualy the money will dry up. Backers/Financers will steer clear of game production if we continue on this tack - it may take another 5-10 years to reach critical mass, but we dont have a healthy consumer friendly games market at the momment. Costs are way to high, Hype way to important and 'bucks per hour' of entertainment given much too much importance in calculating the accountants returns, so to speak.

Only time will tell if myself and others are even remotely close to being correct, but it doesn't really matter. The sad thing from my point of view is that an industry that i've grown up being involved in and supporting since it's early days, and one that offers so much entertainment potential; seems to be slipping away from some of its core qualities.

Addicitivness, innovation, value/longevity, replayability are becoming rare words to describe many recent 'hit' titles. That is the thing i worry about most.

Still on a positive note, thank god for all the great games made previously, the bargin bins are full of many of them

	08-10-2004 22:16									#46
	Got spare money?

I think I'd still buy Civ4 and GalCiv2 before their prices go down if they start at $60. In the past I've usually bought games before the prices go down. If the prices go up higher than $60 I might wait. I like to get new games while people are still talking about them. Civ and GalCiv are the only computer games I play right now and the only ones I'm looking forward to. I have a PS2 but haven't used it much and only have 2 or 3 games on it. I wouldn't mind playing future Civ and GalCiv games on console. I'm sure I'd still enjoy playing Civ1 and 2 but I don't. There are a few games I played on my Atari 800 that I'd love to play again.

	08-10-2004 22:35									#47
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I hope not. And if they do increase it should only be $5, not $10.

Games like Diablo 2 and Doom3 actually did sell their games at higher prices. not too many people complained about Diablo2. That was worth it since the provided the multiplayer servers- much better than a mmrpg (though not as much to do as in those games). Doom 3 I wouldn't say was worth it, but I got the game for less than $50 at Fry's anyways.

	09-10-2004 00:02									#48
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quote: Originally posted by lord of the mark another thing i dont get. All those of you who pirate big publisher games cause "theyre not good enough" why dont you buy games from independents, or get open source games, or whatever. If the big name games are so bad, why do you pirate them in lieu of supporting something new?

I would still buy games from independents but there aren't many of those either. PC games are in the toliet right now. I could post a photo of all my games probably over $5000 and I've owned 3 PCs and I think 6+ consoles? I buy plenty just not lately. I do have a PS2, and Gamecube with about 10+ total games for both. Lately I rent games for consoles due to the short play time. I also buy less co-op and multiplayer console games because I don't have any serious gaming friends like I used to.

quote: well lets see the MMORPG cos get revenue when they sell the game, PLUS they get subscription fees. Even pirates have to pay. And theres nothing equivalent on the console. and its a big market. No wonder theyre making em.

It is very possible to pirate MMORPGs. I'm pretty sure Everquest and Ultima Online(and I think others) have been reverse engineered so you can run your own private server. Both of those games still have 500k+ subscribers so pirating isn't so widespread as it should be if everyone thought like you seem to do(eg anyone who warez games pirates everything ). There are also numerous free MMORPGs and more coming every day. MMORPGs are on consoles too. FF11 on PS2 I think has maybe over 100k users?

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Daggerfall was a buggy mess... I could hardly play it. Perhaps that colored my view of it .

Yeah it was buggy at first. Seeing how much you love Black and White I don't see how that would phase you at all. You couldn't even beat B&W's massive five levels without a patch. In all seriousness Daggerfall 2.13(IIRC that is the latest patch) is pretty damn stable. I'd say it's about the same as Morrowind. I rarely crash on either and usually play for a few hours at a time.

quote: Originally posted by Maquiladora Although to be fair, when gameplay was king the gameplay was fairly simple, and presentation wasnt really great either, you got a flashing screen with 8 colours one at the start and one when you completed it.

I don't buy that argument at all. Back then cutting edge graphics were probably just as impressive as they are today. I know I was impressed as a kid with SNES graphics. When I first saw the introduction to FF6 I was floored. I thought graphics would never be able to get better. Gameplay is always more important.

quote: Look at some Japanese games today, you can tell theyve been playtested to eternity sometimes, they ooze quality, but even those come with big opening FMV sequences now.

I think it's cultural. Japanese seem to be much more serious in regards to gaming. People who like gameplay over all else are usually hardcore gamers but in Japan I'd guess normal people value gameplay more. Gaming is much more accepted over there too.

quote: Once I heard Sega Europe was turning down games like Radiant Silvergun, Strikers 1945 and Dracula X because "you only need to hold down one button" (wrong anyway), I knew the European and US console game market was ready to be flushed with sequels and basic remakes with only enhanced graphics all over again.

I know the feeling. There are so many good Japanese games that don't get translated. I can' t image translation is so hard to do or expensive that so many games aren't done. Mainly it goes back to perception I think. No one thinks those obscure Japanese games will sell. I think they would especially considering ROTK is still going strong and that's much more hardcore than most Japanese games.

http://donut.parodius.com/ - hub site for translation of Japanese games. They have a lot listed here.

	09-10-2004 00:04									#49
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oh, btw lotm quartertothree is one of my favorite forums. how did you find it?

	09-10-2004 02:07									#50
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by pg oh, btw lotm quartertothree is one of my favorite forums. how did you find it?

Ive lurked at CSIPGS on and off for some time, and even once posted there under a different name. So ive seen Tom Chicks and/or Mark Ashers posts every so often with their links. So i occasionally look at qto3.


As for piratical behavior variations, yup, i know there are different groups - at one extreme the folks who (proudly) pirate everything, at the other those who pirate only when they cant find a demo, and buy or stop playing - which i can see an argument for - and then beyond that are grey areas like abandonware, etc. In my most recent snarky remarks, i was hinking of folks like Tass who buy some games but play lots of games they pirate, cause theyre "poor" and the games "arent that good" I suppose we could do another thread on indy gamers, open source projects etc. I have enough old games im still not done with that i havent looked for those much, but then i havent found a need to pirate anything either.

	09-10-2004 04:12									#51
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quote: Seeing how much you love Black and White I don't see how that would phase you at all. You couldn't even beat B&W's massive five levels without a patch. In all seriousness Daggerfall 2.13(IIRC that is the latest patch) is pretty damn stable.

Patches on cable modem >> Patches on Dial-up .

Hell, I don't even remember if I was online in '95!

	09-10-2004 04:25									#52
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by pg I don't buy that argument at all. Back then cutting edge graphics were probably just as impressive as they are today. I know I was impressed as a kid with SNES graphics. When I first saw the introduction to FF6 I was floored. I thought graphics would never be able to get better. Gameplay is always more important.

Cutting edge graphics back then required a lot fewer people and a lot less talent than they do today - it just really isn't that hard to draw 2d images.

	09-10-2004 04:54									#53
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Cutting edge graphics back then required a lot fewer people and a lot less talent than they do today - it just really isn't that hard to draw 2d images.

It's not hard to make a 3D mesh, either. There's various degrees of complexity that can be given to a game's graphics, but the medium used doesn't neccisarily make it more difficult, or require more people to create.


The insanely intricate and detailed pixel art used in some of the best SNES games rivals the complexity of similiarily detailed 3D graphics which are used today.

Of course, there is also alot of simplistic 3D games being made today, just as there was alot of old games which used simplistic graphics.

	09-10-2004 22:48									#54
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui Patches on cable modem >> Patches on Dial-up . Hell, I don't even remember if I was online in '95!

The last Daggerfall patch was 1.4mb and that takes less than an 10 mins on 28.8k. Some games today with their 100mb+ patches probably take longer over a cable modem. Daggerfall was also released in August 31st of 1996.

	09-10-2004 22:59									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Cutting edge graphics back then required a lot fewer people and a lot less talent than they do today - it just really isn't that hard to draw 2d images.

I'm sure this is true but games back then were also a smaller industry. I'm too lazy to do ratios comparision from today and then but one thing I am pretty sure of is graphics today eat a bigger percentage of total budget than before. That doesn't mean it has to. Games with low graphics budgets can still make profits.

BTW, pixel art is hard. I've been trying to make some for Wesnoth because I thought it looked easy but it's not. Trying to make good looking graphics out of less than 72x72 is frustrating.

see my works in progress below and don't laugh.

	10-10-2004 01:35									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar quote: i was hinking of folks like Tass who buy some games but play lots of games they pirate, ... And if you want then create a thread filled with open source games and such...I dont go out searching for them since they tend to give little value for what they ask for, but if there are some good ones out there that I'm absolutely oblivious to then by all means...

I'm making a safe bet if there isn't a single person in this thread who hasn't played some or more copied* games during his/her lifetime. It only becomes a problem if you primarily resort to copied games your entire life.

In reply to that final argument which concerned open source ("free"/libre games). Hell, if you're prepared to go off the beaten tracks there's tons of freeware and open source games available.

So, little value in relation to...what exactly? time and the effort of looking for it? That you state that you're oblivious to them seems to be due to the fact that you don't even bother looking...



* Note that I say "copied", not "pirated". "Pirate" is an oblique term, a classic debating trick to smear or make the other party appear in a different light. Pirates are actually cutthroats armed with cutlasses who board and plunder ships and have a squawking parrot on their shoulder

	10-10-2004 02:34									#57
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quote: Originally posted by CapTVK * Note that I say "copied", not "pirated". "Pirate" is an oblique term, a classic debating trick to smear or make the other party appear in a different light. Pirates are actually cutthroats armed with cutlasses who board and plunder ships and have a squawking parrot on their shoulder

	10-10-2004 02:40									#58
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

The word "pirate", in my opinion, has mostly lost its negative connotations due to overuse and the way its been so widely adopted, even by the "pirates" themselves. Not so with people who are not familiar with the subject, though.

	10-10-2004 05:40									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar quote: i was hinking of folks like Tass who buy some games but play lots of games they pirate, 1. "Buy some games"? You already had your rant on how I had bought *too many* games. You can't have it both ways. Choose the argument your going to stick with: Am I a massive spender or have I recieved too many games as gifts? 2. Perhaps 3 out of, what, 14, (1 of which was really gifted) constitues "lots" (as opposed to the "some"-worthy tally of 10 of 17)...Really, isn't it better if you at least argue what is true instead of try to spin it to support your position (Tass buys some of his games, but he pirates *lots* of them!!!111!!1) And if you want then create a thread filled with open source games and such...I dont go out searching for them since they tend to give little value for what they ask for, but if there are some good ones out there that I'm absolutely oblivious to then by all means...

I didnt say you bought too many games. And i really cant follow your habits in detail, im sorry.

Not many good open source games - I dont know. But an open source game, if low value, is legitimately free. Im saying if you like commercial games, buy them. If commercial games dont give good value for money DONT play them, and play open source or other free games. I dont understand the point of view that says these games arent worth paying for, but im gonna play em anyway.

	10-10-2004 05:46									#60
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by CapTVK I'm making a safe bet if there isn't a single person in this thread who hasn't played some or more copied* games during his/her lifetime. It only becomes a problem if you primarily resort to copied games your entire life.

I use the word pirate. I thought i was going easy, since i didnt say "thief" which would bring up the whole tired discussion of how piracy technically aint theft. Copying is misleading, since in some circumstances copying may be legal. When its a problem is another issue. Ive tried to address some of the issues in another thread, its thrown this one entirely off track.

Oh, and ive never pirated a game in my life. Period. Or music. Or whatever. My daughters friend has suggested my daughter take advantage of the Sims lack of CD rerquirements on some xpacks, to share xpacks. Im prepared to look the other way, ON CONDITION my daughter buys at least SOMETHING in that franchise - buys more than she shares. And I will lay out the issues for her, and let her make the choice. (its still academic, till we buy a PC that will run the Sims)