06-10-2004 04:18									#1
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I discovered something odd, I'm a bit of nut when it comes to Wonders and like to get as many as possible, In my best food producing City, London I had a 21 size pop and a decent workforce but not quite enoguh shields to get the latest wonder, now in Conquests it doesnt let you add workers that cause a negative food defacit BUT when I went into disorder it did!
I therefore went into disorder and got London up to a size 40 city courtesy of many lazy Workers , of course, it starved the rate of 1 pop per turn but enjoyed an extra 40 shields per turn at it's peak
thoughts?

Last edited by Worthingtons on 07-10-2004 at 02:11

	06-10-2004 04:30									#2
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Need you ask this?




* asleepathewheel runs off to implement this tactic into his current game.

	06-10-2004 05:51									#3
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Interesting find. I think there is a hard limit of size 256 now at least though.

	06-10-2004 08:11									#4
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Definitely an exploit... but, like Sleepy, I'll be trying it.

	06-10-2004 09:49									#5
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Worthingtons, you are awesome!! Man, I love it that people are still coming up with new twists and turns...

Question, though: I don't quite understand, what does going beyond 21 pop do for shield production? Specialists?

	06-10-2004 12:08									#6
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party hard with the great worker sacrifices

	06-10-2004 15:35									#7
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Yeah, Civil Engineers give the city 2 production boost per extra worker, best in the pursuit of a wonder you're losing on

	06-10-2004 17:43									#8
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Awesome... little bit of a tricky boost for REL.

	07-10-2004 02:17									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Aeson Interesting find. I think there is a hard limit of size 256 now at least though.

Really? well at that size @ 2 shields per citizen it'd take all of 2 turns to get the UN then

	07-10-2004 02:45									#10
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Don't forget to detract the shields lost from spending a turn in disorder.

	07-10-2004 06:12									#11
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Can you post a screenie of the city? I would imagine you'd have to have pretty much all flat ground, since a few hills and mountains would give some decent shield production. Assuming London is your capital, corruption wouldn't be an issue.

up until now, I've really only used Engineers for corrupt cities.....and not for some time. So your post is quite interesting

	10-10-2004 16:16									#12
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It is an exploit, but it comes at a price. Wonder if it will be outlawed in the ironciver tournament?


Worthingtons, for finding out

	10-10-2004 17:05									#13
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yeah Rommel will be onto this for his lists all very very soon

	11-10-2004 10:43									#14
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I'm but a humble spokesperson for the will of the people, and I say the will of the people will disallow it...

It doesn't seem like a drastic enough problem to outlaw it in the current games- at least two turns of anarchy and depleting your other cities of population and production for a few turns. (then again if someone had the Mayans...)

	11-10-2004 12:42									#15
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Didn't try this one out myself, but you weren't required to have a revolution? Only to bring the target city into disorder? That's one turn of lost production in one city. Not to mention each turn will cost you one population point and 10 shields.

Let's see...20 workers cost you 20 pop and 200 shields. They will perish in 20 turns, during which they will produce 20*(40+0)/2=400 shields.
50% 'waste'

40 workers cost you 40pop and 400 shields, it will give you 40*(80+0)/2=1600 shields.
25% 'waste'

Interesting, this tactic is stronger the more workers you add. In fact, once you got a core strong enough to support this tactic you can use large amounts of corruption-free engineers to develop those useless outer-rim cites.

I would love to see someone push this tactic to the extreme.

I don't have the guts to do it myself, I hate the thought of putting all the entertainers back to engineers each turn

Rommel, you better outlaw it right away

	11-10-2004 13:16									#16
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I've already used it to it's extreme in order to the turn round a race for the Hoover dam which I was previously losing

However, I am delighted to say my exploit has been officially recognised on the Civfanatics GOTM page , with a link to this thread. I don't mind it being banned really, just pleased I managed to find it - although I'd look upon this as the Importing of Labour - the starvation being the price you need to pay, I mean when London made the underground didnt they import Irish labour to do it, of which many perished?

Cheers
Matt

	13-10-2004 21:46									#17
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What exactly would be banned? I confess that I don't think this is an exploit. Lots of strange things happen in anarchy and civil disorder

	14-10-2004 16:00									#18
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How could you fit that many citizens into the city screen? COULD you even click finely enough to turn them all into CEs?

	14-10-2004 16:34									#19
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Good question, MWIA, I didn't think of that!

	14-10-2004 18:47									#20
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One at a time, MWIA, so you're always just clicking on the last one.

Boy, talk about tedium!

	14-10-2004 22:56									#21
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This exploit may be allowed because there are so few willing to do the neccessary micromanaging

	15-10-2004 00:34									#22
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Yes indeed - if you managed to do that much to win a game, full credit to you. :b

	15-10-2004 03:38									#23
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I disagree with the above, you do not be switching every turn, specialists do NOT add to the unhappiness (Interesting but true), only eat food, therefore you could have 50 specialists and if your current pop is happy none of them need to be entertainers, obviously you'll need to be happy enough to be able maintain a size 21 pop, which can easily be achieved by the ascertaining Happiness wonders/luxuries + marketplace ect & not engaging in long long wars.
Therefore you only need to make them engineers once (pollution will mess up your tile's like normal but this shoudnt effect the extra army), here's my example, in my current game for example purposes only I boosted London to a size 45 (a lot of my workers were in france so coudnt be bothered to bring any more back), this added a tremendous 46 sheilds per turn taking London's estimated time to complete the Wonder SETI program from 17 turns to 8 (obviously it'll be a bit more than 8 due to starting) but say if an IA was projected to finish this wonder in 15 turns this would have been the difference - therefore I reject it takes micromanagement as it's a one-off monouvour which took me about 2 minutes.

Attachment: london.gif
This has been downloaded 126 time(s).

	15-10-2004 10:12									#24
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Starvation doesn't reset your specialists every turn?

	15-10-2004 11:14									#25
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quote: Originally posted by jshelr What exactly would be banned? I confess that I don't think this is an exploit. Lots of strange things happen in anarchy and civil disorder

The ban would either be on adding settlers/workers to a city in disorder beyond it's ability to support them with food, or, to keep it simpler, on adding them to any city in disorder whatsoever. So far, this looks like an oversight in programming on Firaxis's part rather than an intentional effect of loosing control of your city, at least IMO.

	15-10-2004 12:40									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Rommel2D Starvation doesn't reset your specialists every turn?

I always thought it did.

As for an oversight in Firaxis' programming.....CivIII has been out for what, 3 years now? We are now getting to the very extremity of useful exploits with this little gem , and I'm sure given another couple of years some more increasingly eccentric exploits could be found.

I can only return to my earlier comment on this.....look at your situation - it is late game and you probably have the game easily won by now (or at least, you should have!)....so by the time you have sufficient excess Workers to sacrifice without this being substantially detrimental to your empire, this just becomes an exercise in semantics

Hats off in recognition of Worthingtons' intellect and powers of lateral thinking however, for discovering what will now forever be known as the Worthingtons Manoeuvre

	15-10-2004 14:06									#27
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There is something I do not understand on the screenshot above.
You have a normal tile prod of 23 shields and with 28 engineers your total shield prod is 46
The only relation I see between 23, 28 and 46 is that 46 = 2*23.
Wouldn't that mean that, whatever the number of engineers, they may at best only double your shield prod?

Last edited by Dry on 15-10-2004 at 14:22

	15-10-2004 17:18									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Dry There is something I do not understand on the screenshot above. You have a normal tile prod of 23 shields and with 28 engineers your total shield prod is 46 The only relation I see between 23, 28 and 46 is that 46 = 2*23. Wouldn't that mean that, whatever the number of engineers, they may at best only double your shield prod?

The reason for all this is that shields contributed by CEs don't appear in the resources per turn count. If he has 46 shields from CEs (I ain't going to count all of them), then his total production is the 46 shields shown in the free shields per turn box + the 46 from CEs. Or whatever the exact numbers are. The key is that you have to actually count the number of CEs you have to account for the shields they give you - they aren't added to the total shown.

	15-10-2004 17:59									#29
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Ok. So, 46 is prod with factory & plant.
Plus 56 of the 28 CEs, makes a total prod of 102 per turn.
That would fit indeed the 8 turns (==8 rows) left to complete SETI.