07-10-2004 02:20									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I was once was able to get 4 candy bars for a dollar... now I am luck if I can get 2. Why? Did they start putting more or different stuff in the candy bar? Did the manfuacturer or other person down the chain of command just get more greedy? Is the wrapper made of pure gold? Was there some strange candy tax levied on the bar? Actually, the dollar's purchasing power just became less. I could no more buy the same amount of soda for a dollar than I could candy bars. In that sense it is a zero sum game? That, however, is the time value of money.

This all has nothing to do with the subject. If you invest the money then you can buy more candy in the future, because you get a return on your investment. Did your money create candy bars? As Shogun has stated, "of course not."

	07-10-2004 02:21									#62
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I'll give you this Kid. You are amusing in your trolling....

	07-10-2004 02:21									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious This all has nothing to do with the subject. If you invest the money then you can buy more candy in the future, because you get a return on your investment. Did your money create candy bars? As Shogun has stated, "of course not."

stop misconstruing and misquoting me.

	07-10-2004 02:21									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner Well, in that case I think the FICA tax isn't really a viable economic concept and I'm going to demand that payroll stops the criminal process of removing these funds from my bi-weekly compensation distribution. Prove to me that FICA tax is a valid economic activity. Oh, you can't, can you. That's all the proof I need....here I go walking down to payroll......

Maybe I should state this again. All value is created by work. Is tax work.

	07-10-2004 02:22									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Shogun Gunner stop misconstruing and misquoting me.

Whatever.

	07-10-2004 02:25									#66
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quote: All value is created by work

No it's not.

Why is stock worth $5 one day and 6$ the next? It's not because they worked one more day, else their stock would go up a dollar a day.

	07-10-2004 02:28									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Japher No it's not. Why is stock worth $5 one day and 6$ the next? It's not because they worked one more day, else their stock would go up a dollar a day.

Was something of value created? The value of the goods and services in the economy is the same, ceterus parabus. The increased price is nothing more than speculative value. It can't be utilized.

	07-10-2004 02:31									#68
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quote: fluidity of capital allows economic activity to occur where it otherwise would not.

The whole point of the market is to efficiently allocate funds to the most profitable projects aka the most value creating projects. Does this facilitation by it's self create value, no. However, it does allow for the greatest creation of value.

	07-10-2004 02:33									#69
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Actually, speculative value is what investors use to determine the actual value, or purchase price.

Every stock has a PE, right? Price of a stock vs. Earning of the company, or, Value of the Stock vs. Earnings of the comapny. If work=product=earnings than all companies with the same PE should have the same price, and that is not true. Valuations based of future earning, current capitalization and equity positions, as well as increase/decrease in performance vs. previous quarters all come into play; speculation.

The real determination of price is value, and value is an illusion so far as it is created from perceived worth, not from some actual tangible asset or service.

So, in some sense it is not real, but try and order McDonalds $2 dollars for a $5 dollar meal and see what they say... that, is reality.

	07-10-2004 02:39									#70
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quote: Originally posted by Japher Actually, speculative value is what investors use to determine the actual value, or purchase price.

You're using 'value' and 'price' interchangably. In so doing, making a circular argument.

quote: The real determination of price is value, and value is an illusion so far as it is created from perceived worth, not from some actual tangible asset or service.

Ok you don't do that here, but only actual assets have real value. Speculative value has nothing to do with actual value.

quote: So, in some sense it is not real, but try and order McDonalds $2 dollars for a $5 dollar meal and see what they say... that, is reality.

What does this have to do with anything. I'm not arguing about the value of a McDonalds meal. I'm simply saying that the actual value of that meal was only created by the work involved in producing it, not by what McDonald's creditors get for return.

	07-10-2004 02:40									#71
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard quote: fluidity of capital allows economic activity to occur where it otherwise would not. The whole point of the market is to efficiently allocate funds to the most profitable projects aka the most value creating projects. Does this facilitation by it's self create value, no. However, it does allow for the greatest creation of value.

Ah, so now we are allowed to create value. Great system, NOT!

	07-10-2004 02:44									#72
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quote: You're using 'value' and 'price' interchangably. In so doing, making a circular argument.

I am not using them interchangably, I said they use value to determine price, it is a factor.

quote: Speculative value has nothing to do with actual value.

but it does... perhapse that is where you fail. When determing a worth you must use both technical AND fundamental anaylsis, not one or the other.

Recall the Cabbage Patch Dolls, Tickle Me Elmo, The Pet Rock, Scalped tickets at ball parks, beer on a plane...

	07-10-2004 02:48									#73
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quote: Originally posted by Japher but it does... perhapse that is where you fail. When determing a worth you must use both technical AND fundamental anaylsis, not one or the other. Recall the Cabbage Patch Dolls, Tickle Me Elmo, The Pet Rock, Scalped tickets at ball parks, beer on a plane...

Aye aye aye. You ARE using price and value interchangably. Selling the good or service for more than is costs to produce it does not create value. It only increases the price.

Selling - not productive

Producing - productive

	07-10-2004 02:49									#74
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quote: Did your money create candy bars?

Well technically your money didn't create candy bars, correct. But you desire to have candy bars and your willingness to pay $$ for it means that there is a market for candy bars. So in a way your money did create candy bars but only by acting through your desire. Money is a medium, not a beginning or end in of itself.

	07-10-2004 02:50									#75
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quote: Aye aye aye. You ARE using price and value interchangably. Selling the good or service for more than is costs to produce it does not create value. It only increases the price.

Ok

	07-10-2004 02:51									#76
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quote: Ah, so now we are allowed to create value. Great system, NOT!

Your reply makes no sense. It allocates capital where it will help labor create the most value by *ding *ding *ding working.

	07-10-2004 02:52									#77
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I always wondered why gold costs so much. It can't be because of the scarcity. I mean, there is plenty of rare crap out there that no one wants. Why this one metal?

Is only "worth" that much because people are willing to "pay" that much for it? Is the price determining the worth? Is worth not value?

	07-10-2004 02:55									#78
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quote: Selling the good or service for more than is costs to produce it does not create value.

Well in a way it does create its value. Artificially yes but it still creates its value. Going back futher, your willingness and desire to pay the market price for a product means that your willingness and desire to have that product creates its value.

	07-10-2004 02:57									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Well technically your money didn't create candy bars, correct. But you desire to have candy bars and your willingness to pay $$ for it means that there is a market for candy bars. So in a way your money did create candy bars but only by acting through your desire. Money is a medium, not a beginning or end in of itself.

You have to get money to buy the candy bars. Money, in so far as it stores value, does so because some where someone worked. Therefore buying candy bars only creates value in so far as someone working to pay for those candy bars. That's not to say that the person who worked for those candy bars consumed the bars, because as we know money is compensated for itself, without any regard for work.

	07-10-2004 02:59									#80
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard quote: Ah, so now we are allowed to create value. Great system, NOT! Your reply makes no sense. It allocates capital where it will help labor create the most value by *ding *ding *ding working.

Who cares? Work is not maximized in a capitalist system. Only money is.

	07-10-2004 03:00									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I ignore Flubber. Isn't that obvious? He's quite annoying.

I'm honored. . .. I don't believe I have been ignored before . I guess reality is annoying to your worldview.

	07-10-2004 03:01									#82
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quote: Originally posted by Japher I always wondered why gold costs so much. It can't be because of the scarcity. I mean, there is plenty of rare crap out there that no one wants. Why this one metal? Is only "worth" that much because people are willing to "pay" that much for it? Is the price determining the worth? Is worth not value?

It actually costs a lot to extract gold. Look at all the 49ers. A lot of work was done to get that gold out. A lot of work was done also to support the 49ers. That being said gold was sold at a greater price than its value.

	07-10-2004 03:03									#83
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But the gold still doesn't cost 20cents an ounce like it did back in 1849... why is that?

	07-10-2004 03:05									#84
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quote: You have to get money to buy the candy bars. Money, in so far as it stores value, does so because some where someone worked. Therefore buying candy bars only creates value in so far as someone working to pay for those candy bars. That's not to say that the person who worked for those candy bars consumed the bars, because as we know money is compensated for itself, without any regard for work.

Thats true. But your work is paid for through someones desire and willingness to buy your product. Take for example the person who makes candy bars. He works one hour and makes ten candy bars. Puts candy bars in the store at $10 a candy bar. Nobody buys candy bars. So he drops price to $1 a candy bar. Now candy bars sell. He pays running costs of his business. Amongst these is wages. People get paid for creating something somebody is willing to pay money for. The only reason the monetary system is used is because the world grew to big for the barter system to work. I have a funny feeling that the barter system is more in your world view but I could be wrong.

	07-10-2004 03:07									#85
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious Who cares? Work is not maximized in a capitalist system. Only money is.

Really-- well I work more and harder because that earns me more money. In a communist system I would sit on my a$$ with the rest and wait for my share. A LOT of people would feel the same.

I'm actually enjoying the freedom of kid not reading this stuff-- It frees me from his continual assertions of being misunderstood or misquoted. But I am suprised he capitulated without a fight . .. isn't failing to address valid points capitulation?

	07-10-2004 03:09									#86
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quote: The only reason the monetary system is used is because the world grew to big for the barter system to work. I have a funny feeling that the barter system is more in your world view but I could be wrong.

quote: I think the real question is what I semi-seriously posed before which is whether the economic system is a zero-sum game (for every winner there is a loser) or if there is growth (the economic pie grows over time).

So it is not zero sum and grows in response to an increase population and counter to competition? So value is determined by availibility and price by desirability?

	07-10-2004 03:11									#87
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quote: Who cares? Work is not maximized in a capitalist system. Only money is.

So in your little world, you measure everything by number of total hours it took to produce something? The efficient allocation of capital (accumulated labor) causes the greatest number or quality of goods and services to be produced at a given amount of labor. Quality and quantity of goods and services is measured in dollars. That is how I would define value not in hours it took to produce.

	07-10-2004 03:14									#88
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quote: So it is not zero sum and grows in response to an increase population and counter to competition? So value is determined by availibility and price by desirability?

Gonna go out on a limb and say yeah sure why not. I agree with the increased population part but I'm not sure what you mean by counter to competition. I also feel that availibility would also affect price as well.

quote: Really-- well I work more and harder because that earns me more money. In a communist system I would sit on my a$$ with the rest and wait for my share. A LOT of people would feel the same.

Thats true IMO. Thats why I feel the communist economic system would not work. People have no reward for inventing new things or working harder. Basically there is no incentive to set yourself apart from the crowd. Communist economics could only work in a stagnate society. Hmmm Possibly that is what the end of history means. Isn't the communist paradise supposed to come about when history ends?

	07-10-2004 03:15									#89
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard quote: Who cares? Work is not maximized in a capitalist system. Only money is. So in your little world, you measure everything by number of total hours it took to produce something?

Are you new at this?? vel and I went at him for 2 threads on this point . Kid started by claiming that everyone that did "real work" should get the same wage but then waffled a bit. Thats around when he began ignoring me I think

	07-10-2004 03:16									#90
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quote: Gonna go out on a limb and say yeah sure why not. I agree with the increased population part but I'm not sure what you mean by counter to competition. I also feel that availibility would also affect price as well.

Yeah, I don't know, just talkin' out my arse. Since population increase as well as competition would both effect price... population creates competition, but not in a linear or predicatable fashion, which is what I mean by counter.

Price is set by desirability and availability, not just by worth.