07-10-2004 03:50									#121
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Aye, if something was valued in how many hours it took to make it means somebody would get paid more for making a sh*tty product that took twice as long as someone who made a better product taking half that time. Isn't there something counter-initiative about this?

I'm not saying any of this. I'm saying that whatever value a thing has, that value has been created by labor.

	07-10-2004 03:52									#122
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd You might not, and that's fine, because like I said, value is relative - you might feel that morally, it is more valuable to compensate working harder to a greater degree than working smarter, and that's fine. You'll just lose money in the long run doing that. But that may not be important to you.

You are so full of it. You don't believe that value is relative at all. Anyone who has been around here knows that.

	07-10-2004 03:52									#123
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I wouldn't say that working harder takes longer. Working smarter is apart of working harder. The harder and smarter worker deserves to be rewarded more than the worker who takes his time. Otherwise this just incourages laziness and inefficiency.

	07-10-2004 03:52									#124
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious The monetary system was created so that people could consume goods and services without doing any work.

No it wasn't. Currency was invented so people didn't have to carry 10 shoes, 6 hats, 4 chickens, and a goat to barter with.

	07-10-2004 03:52									#125
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"Magic' is not a rebuttal. It's a cop out, try again.

	07-10-2004 03:53									#126
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quote: But now you are of course talking about stockpiles of money. This is not the way Adam Smith defined wealth. He defined wealth as the production of goods and services, and specifically called the stockpile of money, not wealth, and therefor nothing of true actual value.

Without money, you can't produce goods and services, can you? There'd be no way for you to obtain materials, and in any case no one to pay for the finished good or the service.

	07-10-2004 03:54									#127
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho Kid. Everyone is trying to tell you that labour has no inherent value. The value is decided by what the market is willing to pay for it and what the labourer is willing to accept.

I don't care about this at all. It has nothing to do with what I'm talking about. Stick to the subject - time value of money.

	07-10-2004 03:54									#128
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Kid:
Define value and a way to measure it.

	07-10-2004 03:55									#129
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Without money, you can't produce goods and services, can you? There'd be no way for you to obtain materials, and in any case no one to pay for the finished good or the service.

Point?

edit: not that I agree with this. Just want to stick to relevences.

	07-10-2004 03:55									#130
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quote: I'm not saying any of this. I'm saying that whatever value a thing has, that value has been created by labor.

No, because labour is only a fraction of the value. The price of the thing is created through the interaction of the market. The value of the product is decided by all the factors that go into the making of the product. In an ideal world the price and value will coincide but that isn't always the way and as such prices will reflect this and meet at a happy equilibrium.

	07-10-2004 03:56									#131
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho No, because labour is only a fraction of the value. The price of the thing is created through the interaction of the market. The value of the product is decided by all the factors that go into the making of the product. In an ideal world the price and value will coincide but that isn't always the way and as such prices will reflect this and meet at a happy equilibrium.

Again. Circular argument.

	07-10-2004 03:56									#132
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quote: You are so full of it. You don't believe that value is relative at all. Anyone who has been around here knows that.

I believe that for you personally, your definition of value is perfectly acceptable, even though I, and most others, think it's stupid. That's why my definition of value fits reality - most people hold that same perception, because most people want to make money.

	07-10-2004 03:56									#133
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Define value and a way to measure it.

Not relevent. Talking about what creates value, not measuring it.

	07-10-2004 03:57									#134
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Somebody else should ask him if there is a time value of work-- See if that person gets ignored LOL

	07-10-2004 03:58									#135
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Define value with out a way to measure it. You can't talk about creating something if you don't tell us what it is. You obviously have a very different definition than the rest of us.

	07-10-2004 03:58									#136
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quote: Point?

Point being that even if you don't agree that money itself is actual wealth (which to a degree is true, because money is based on a value judgment, which again, is based on perceptions), in this reality, in this world, you can't produce goods and services (which you seem to point to as real wealth), and therefore, money is essential to wealth.

	07-10-2004 03:58									#137
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd I believe that for you personally, your definition of value is perfectly acceptable, even though I, and most others, think it's stupid. That's why my definition of value fits reality - most people hold that same perception, because most people want to make money.

I money too. It has value. It doesn't create value though.

	07-10-2004 03:58									#138
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Exactly, value is created by commonly held perceptions.

	07-10-2004 03:59									#139
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Thanks Kid

	07-10-2004 04:00									#140
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OK, I've done my bit, now I'm off to play some poker and drink beer

	07-10-2004 04:00									#141
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Point being that even if you don't agree that money itself is actual wealth (which to a degree is true, because money is based on a value judgment, which again, is based on perceptions), in this reality, in this world, you can't produce goods and services (which you seem to point to as real wealth), and therefore, money is essential to wealth.

So what? I'm not arguing against using money.

	07-10-2004 04:00									#142
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quote: Originally posted by Kidicious I money too. It has value. It doesn't create value though.

But the use of money creates value-- Often I can buy thins that when added to existing goods, results in a value greater than the sum of the parts

	07-10-2004 04:01									#143
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quote: Again. Circular argument.

I don't see where its circular? The labour is just one fraction of the everything that goes into creating a product. It has no set inherent value. It is created though the interaction of the market. What people are willing to pay and what people are willing to accept.

Also just define value then.

	07-10-2004 04:03									#144
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I'm gone too-- I'm either

1.going to get to work on my To do list from the other thread OR

2. Pick a nice stock to buy in kid's honour OR

3. Directly exploit someone by using money to employ them at something-- like perhaps the neighbour girl could babysit while my wife and I engage in some frivolous consumption

	07-10-2004 04:05									#145
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I must also depart too. Though it has been somewhat entertaining. I happen to have a 1500 word essay to write by 5pm and its now 12pm. Also I've only done 200 words. Oh well best get onto it.

	07-10-2004 04:06									#146
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Define value with out a way to measure it. You can't talk about creating something if you don't tell us what it is. You obviously have a very different definition than the rest of us.

I don't really except that there is a difference between real value and speculative value. Speculative value is determined by price, but just because something has speculative value doesn't mean that the overall amount or quality of goods and services has increased. In fact the opposite is also possible.

	07-10-2004 04:06									#147
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho I must also depart too. Though it has been somewhat entertaining. I happen to have a 1500 word essay to write by 5pm and its now 12pm. Also I've only done 200 words. Oh well best get onto it.

If its on deluded communist ideals, I think you could cut and paste quite a bit

	07-10-2004 04:08									#148
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quote: Originally posted by Flip McWho I don't see where its circular? The labour is just one fraction of the everything that goes into creating a product. It has no set inherent value. It is created though the interaction of the market. What people are willing to pay and what people are willing to accept. Also just define value then.

It's circular because you are stating that money creates value, because money creates value.

	07-10-2004 04:20									#149
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Money measures the value of a good to those willing to pay that amount for it. However, money is not like a yard stick, nor is a good constant. Both can fluctuate in their "worth."

If you have more and more of a good created, beyond what you had before with the same demand for it, then the cost of it goes down. This is supply and demand. It is important to note that this value doesn't necessarily coincide with how much work it takes to procure/make the item, as there are some things people simply don't want, and other things that people really do want. As such some things simply aren't worth making, even if they do require a lot of time and energy.

Money isn't immune to this either. Right now most countries are not on a gold standard, instead they are on the "full faith and credit" standard, basically meaning a unit of money has value because the nation that issued it backs it up, controls the supply of it, etc. So the value of money relative to goods and services can fluctuate too.

Now, both of these things together give you the time value of money. If you properly invest in something today with your money, and the economy works in your way, then your money can be worth more in the future. For instance, if you invest 10 dollars into a work venture making potatoes today, and over the next few works a lot of potatoes are destroyed or the demand for potatoes goes up, then the value of those potatoes you invested in will go up. Let's say you would have broken even if the value of potatoes stayed the same, then your 10 dollar investment will be worth more proportionally to the change of value in those potatoes (if potatoes double in price, then you will have 20 dollars, 10 dollars of profit).

Investing money has become efficient enough so that you don't have to seek out the potato farmer directly though, you can instead invest via the stock market. You can even invest in the government with bonds. As long as the value of your investment increases at a rate greater than inflation (the value change of money), then you will make money.

Make sense?

-Drachasor

	07-10-2004 04:32									#150
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quote: If its on deluded communist ideals, I think you could cut and paste quite a bit

A pity it isn't. It's on the conflict in Northern Ireland and I'm basically examining that in three main sections; causes, parties involved and resolution.

quote: It's circular because you are stating that money creates value, because money creates value.

Ok final point then I must do my essay. Money creates the speculative value. But labour does not hold any inherent value within itself. Which you are tending to ignore.