07-10-2004 02:47									#1
	Cultural Conversion - yeah right Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

ok this is ridiculous. The former japanese city revolted and pledged alliance to the japanese govt.

First: The japanese are sooooooo unimportant, they have just one city and that for quite some time now. Too much time that they'd play any role.
Second: The distance is soooo far away (see the red lines on the map)
Third: My civ is culturally superior to the Japanese.

Whatever formular applies, I highly doubt it's any good.

Attachment: cultureconversion.jpg
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	07-10-2004 02:49									#2
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Looks like most, if not all, the citizens were Japanese. That can be powerful, and is the reason starvation and building slaves can be so effective.

	07-10-2004 02:49									#3
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culture chart (taken 2 turns later)

Attachment: culture.jpg
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	07-10-2004 02:58									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Solomwi Looks like most, if not all, the citizens were Japanese. That can be powerful, and is the reason starvation and building slaves can be so effective.

I never thought this could happen at such a distance, with such a tiny opponent, after such a time.
Does time have an influence?

In addition Nagasaki has built up Culture for its own already.

	07-10-2004 03:06									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa I never thought this could happen at such a distance, with such a tiny opponent, after such a time. Does time have an influence? In addition Nagasaki has built up Culture for its own already.

Time has the influence of eventually turning those Japanese citizens into your citizens but it takes time. The quickest way is to starve the city down to one pop point and build up again. All the new citizens will be your citizens not Japanese.

Regarding culture, yes you'll need some of your own, but in order for it to be effective you need a majority of your citizens over Japanese citizens.

	07-10-2004 04:35									#6
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"ATTENTION... YOU THERE, THE CAVALRY ARMY IN NAGOYA... YOU ARE ORDERED TO PROCEED IMMEDIATELY TO NAGASAKI AND KICK B*TT!!!!"

	07-10-2004 04:42									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

T... that's a single cavalry unit. There must be more where it came from, though, so the premise of your order stands.

	07-10-2004 06:07									#8
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A single Cavarly unit with 8 HP's, while Infantry only have 4? Now that's a nice human-biased mod if ever I've seen one

	07-10-2004 09:40									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Check the 6-hp infantry at Nara, Aqualung. I suspect he's playing a mod that bumps base hp with each era to avoid the spearman/tank problem.

	07-10-2004 13:43									#10
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Ah yes, missed that one Still, 4/6/8 is still probably slightly better than 3/4/5 for an underpowered elite attacker

	07-10-2004 21:00									#11
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that is why you HAVE to wipe out the host civ. This happens to me whenever I don't finish the job, some time in the modern era the city flips back.

	07-10-2004 21:03									#12
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the infantry looks to be a regular or conscript, there is an 8hp infantry guy further up on the picture. I have it set up to just double all the hps, as well as do some other things(blitz on destroyers is nice for dealing with wooden ship swarms for instance).

	07-10-2004 22:26									#13
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As long as there are overlapping tiles or native citizens in your city, there is always a chance for flipping.

Distance from the capital and culture are just modifiers.

This must have been one of the most unluckiest rolls I have ever seen; and I know what unlucky rolls are! (just ask my PBEM partners)

Here is a link to a culture flip calculator. Maybe you can tell us what were the chances for this to happen.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attac...achmentid=37005

and the details: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showt...&threadid=53157

	07-10-2004 22:34									#14
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This is why I turned off flips. Sure, it's fun when a peacetime border city flips to you, or even when one of yours flips to the AI, in those rare instances (like the time I stupidly tried to culture bomb Babylon). But the long distance flip and wartime flip are simply minor nuisances that don't add anything to the game and, IMO, take away more than the other kind of flip adds.

	07-10-2004 22:53									#15
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I sometimes flip more than I conquer with sheer force, so I suppose it is a question of personal preferences in how to play the game.

	07-10-2004 23:31									#16
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I hate flipping. I detest the formula used for it. The only possibly good thing about it is it makes you garrison units to put down a rebellion if you don't want to starve or raze it.

The number of times I've lost about 7 or 8 units in a garrisoned city with large enemy populations makes even garrisoning, not only frustrating, but extremely unit intensive.

	08-10-2004 00:28									#17
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Thx for the calc Tiberius. The chance for a flip is roughly ~0.05-0.1% per turn

Besides to end speculation, I play my mod, which uses HPs: 2/4/6/8
Now that I think of it I should up conscript a bit, because they are quite useless 3/4/6/8 would be better. Still conscripts should hardly have a chance against elite units. Only if they have much better technology.

The unit values are all modified. Cavalry has 16/10, tanks have 36/24, infantry 24/24, riflemen 16/16,... to better reflect technological advantage.
The later units were made much more expensive to obtain as well (e.g. tanks 150 vs 100 shields, modern armor 220 vs 120 shields, modern armor has 64/48 btw )

Oh btw, Cavalry is not so easy to achieve. Chemistry requires education so one has to invest a bit more into the middle ages before he can go to cavalry, which is a good attacking unit until infantry. But infantry has the disadvantage of only 1 movement so Cavalry is still some cheap and formidable unit (especially with its 3 movepoints).

And yes of course the city did belong to me right after the flip again. I moved a tank in

Last edited by Atahualpa on 08-10-2004 at 00:34

	08-10-2004 00:36									#18
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Now that I think of it, I probably should raise maintenance for barracks as well since they have become a lot more powerful.

	08-10-2004 00:39									#19
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I have documented all changes in this excel file

Attachment: civ3_x_ata_units.zip
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	08-10-2004 08:45									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

As a further thought:

I've been replaying Minitourney 1, and ran into a similar situation, where I wanted to take out the Vikings, but they had one city far off that I couldn't easily get to... like you, I was also in democracy, so I wanted a quick in-and-out war.

Ata, why not have engaged the pink (Chinese?), green (Celts?), and blue (Germany?) AI civs in mil alliances, so that the Japanese would have been utterly destroyed? One of them would surely have done the dirty deed. Especially when you are dominating a game the way that you are (and that I am in my replay of MT1), old throw-away techs are a cheap and easy way to gain such alliances.

"Oh, and btw, would you kindly eradicate the Japanese for, say, Free Artistry?" "Oh, yes, thank you very much, happy to oblige... strangely, I feel very gracious towards you."

	08-10-2004 08:47									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa Thx for the calc Tiberius. The chance for a flip is roughly ~0.05-0.1% per turn Besides to end speculation, I play my mod, which uses HPs: 2/4/6/8 Now that I think of it I should up conscript a bit, because they are quite useless 3/4/6/8 would be better. Still conscripts should hardly have a chance against elite units. Only if they have much better technology.

I essentially use the same HP scheme it makes for much more reliable results only change to mine is in the Unit trainings:

Conscript -1 (1/3/5/7)
Regular 0 (2/4/6/8)
Vets +1 (3/5/7/9)
Elite +3 (5/7/9/11)

quote: Oh btw, Cavalry is not so easy to achieve. Chemistry requires education so one has to invest a bit more into the middle ages before he can go to cavalry, which is a good attacking unit until infantry. But infantry has the disadvantage of only 1 movement so Cavalry is still some cheap and formidable unit (especially with its 3 movepoints).

I like this mod, it forces you to research at least half of the top tree and education, a bee-line to cav wouldn't be practical.....

I disagree with you on infantry, once infantry comes on the scene my cavalry are toast (unless you have cav armies)

	09-10-2004 02:27									#22
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quote: Ata, why not have engaged the pink (Chinese?), green (Celts?), and blue (Germany?) AI civs in mil alliances, so that the Japanese would have been utterly destroyed? One of them would surely have done the dirty deed.

Believe me, I couldn't have managed him alone. It was at the time of Samurai. The samurai is a very tough unit in my mod. It's 6/5/2 (Knight is 6/4/2). I also had some Musket Infantry (10/8/1), but it performed worse than I expected and 1 MP is a big bummer.
I tried to hit him with Cavalry then (16/10/3) but his Rifleman (16/16/1) often enough beat the **** out of me.

Anyway all the time I was allied with the Chinese and the Cartagians against them, but for some time it looked like he could push all of us back, he could even advance into our territory. I then went in with some 10-15 cavalries into his mainland and that was the spearhead. Even though he recaptured the city I took, it was enough for the chinese and cartagians to get in. The small land bridge between those continents was blocked often enough (either by stupid allied AI units, or by me trying to get my units through), but more and more units flowed in. Still however we didn't feel we could get through. I once was soooo close to capture his damn capital, but failed on the last unit. My whole cavalry stack was damaged, had to retreat and was easily eaten by chasing Japanese forces.

I noticed we wouldn't be able to come by if we don't cut his resources so I heavily concentrated on his western side where I landed ship after ship and tried to cut saltpeter (cavalry requires saltpeter) and horses. It got a little better after I got Sharpshooters (24/12/1), at least I finally had some power to get at his Riflemen.

In the end, after a casaulty heavy war he lost and the mainland was divided by cartagians, chinese and me. The underdeveloped western region I conquered for myself as a whole.
After some time Cartagians declared war against me and I took almost all of their cities (together with the Chinese again).
Nobody however has killed Jap's last city and I don't like to do it, because then all AI will be mad against me (not that they aren't anyway). Seems like I have no other choice though.

The blue are Mayans and already conquered (one city remains on an island not too far away )
They declared war on me. Don't ask me for this reason or what they'd expect out of that. Getting their cities was a no brainer. I could have let them alone if they would have proven to be more cooperative.

quote: I essentially use the same HP scheme it makes for much more reliable results only change to mine is in the Unit trainings: Conscript -1 (1/3/5/7) Regular 0 (2/4/6/8) Vets +1 (3/5/7/9) Elite +3 (5/7/9/11)

So you mean you have age dependant HPs?
My HP doesn't depend upon age, I rather try to balance them out with greater attack/defense values.
I think age dependant health such as yours have one problem:
in ancient times an elite is 5 times better than a conscript. In modern times it's not even twice as good.
Maybe this was intended (there is no way to implement this in civ3 anyway), but I don't feel that this is right.

quote: I like this mod, it forces you to research at least half of the top tree and education, a bee-line to cav wouldn't be practical.....

thx, I think this is a bit of a flaw in the original civ3 as well. Now that Cavalry is soo much better than everything and the Invention (Longbowmen)->Gunpowder (Musketmen)->Chemistry (Musket Infantry)->Metallurgy (Cannon)->Military Tradition (Cavalry) chain is pretty much the only thing you'll need for military units, except for Knights of course, which you can throw in if you are in urgent need for military power. Therefor the dependency of chemistry on education (which I think is justified from a historical point as well).

quote: I disagree with you on infantry, once infantry comes on the scene my cavalry are toast (unless you have cav armies)

Yes, true you don't really build new cavalry. Still you can use the old ones for cannon fodder (or softening, since they can retreat). And it doesn't do so bad strangely. I always have that feeling that somehow this extra movement also influences their chance to win.

Wars slow down a lot with only infantry units. Thats why infantry armies (24/24/2 - blitz) become very good!
For some quick raids you still need cavalry.


Also an important thing I found out about Civ3 is to disable all those combat animations and such. You care much less if you lose a unit or not. Combat is resovled much quicker, the unit is lost, life goes on.
If you'd watch it all, you'll reload much faster and try something else.

	09-10-2004 09:33									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Atahualpa ......... So you mean you have age dependant HPs? My HP doesn't depend upon age, I rather try to balance them out with greater attack/defense values. I think age dependant health such as yours have one problem: in ancient times an elite is 5 times better than a conscript. In modern times it's not even twice as good. Maybe this was intended (there is no way to implement this in civ3 anyway), but I don't feel that this is right.

I do have age dependent Hp (2 per age, roughly) as a way to give modern units an edge over ancient units without modifying the A/D/M valuse to far from the stock rules.

Even with modern units an Elite will have an 11 to 7 advantage in HP which in ratio is only 1.57 to 1 but to look at it as a ratio is misleading; the elite still has 5 more Hp to lose than the conscript. This allows a conscript the ability to defeat units from lesser ages with some regularity while retaining the superiority of unit training between units of comparable ages.

Remember that in ancient ages unit training was far more important than it is today. Most warriors trained and fought their entire lives and a few hundred trained warriors could defeat thousands of conscripted, poorly trained soldiers. This is not to say that today unit traning isn't important on the battlefield--it is, but it is of lesser importance than it was during the ancient ages.