08-10-2004 00:41									#1
	Copter movements. Inflate your Upload Space

I played a bit with copter movement pointss in alphax.txt
Copters are said to have basic range of 8. This gives:

total movements = 8 + (reactor x 2)
fission - 10
fusion - 12
quantum - 14
singular. - 16
with nanocell - 18

Copters break the game, they are just too powerfull with multiple attacks, when so many movement points they have. When basic movement would be at 2 points, then:

fission - 4
fusion - 6
quantum - 8
singular. - 10
with nanocell - 12

considering that on average on large map bases may be like 4 tiles away, then flying between two bases with some fusion chopper it gives 2 attacks only. Not that powerful anymore.

Has anyone tried to limit copters to so low number of movement points in a scenario?

	08-10-2004 01:38									#2
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Yep, I reduced them in the Mars scenario.
But don't forget that tactical choppers have less movement points then normal ones, so giving only 2 movement points is a severe drawback for those...

	08-10-2004 01:40									#3
	Remove this text

I agree (I think everyone does) that choppers are over powered, and i would be happy to see them nerfed a little bit. Though I think 2 base movement is a little draconian. Remember, a chopper will use some of those movement points getting to the target, and sometimes, getting back. I think if you reduced the movement points by a maybe 3-4, instead of 6, and increased the cost, I think choppers would begin to fall in line. The increased cost would also cut down on the suicide chopper factor.

	08-10-2004 01:55									#4
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Fission chopper has still 4 points. Decreased has 3. Still usable.
Unity chopper would have 3 points.

Early choppers would have little use for conquerring bases. They would be excellent for defence in home base with only 4 points. There is possibility, that M/M interface is researched when already fusion power is available. thus having chopper with 6 move points makes them good for conquer, but on short distances.

Yes, this is the point - multiple attacks of infantry, rovers or hovertanks are not felt this way, cause they have only 1,2,3 points, not 10 or more, as it is case for choppers. when choppers will have 4-10 only instead 10-16 they will still be better than hoovertank, so I wouldn't call it that much drawback. It will prevent "Blietzkrieg" wars with choppers. In mid game copters would be really good for defence only.

Increase cost - good idea. How much in order to make it still worth of building?

	08-10-2004 02:02									#5
	Inflate your Upload Space

On the other hand, copters won't use roads. But if hoovertank using roads may attack, let's say 2 times using third point to move, copter, fusion one - 6 points - may use 4 points to move and 2 to attack. Considering going there and back to avoid mid-landing, it gives possibility to attack up to 3 tiles from the base - not bad.

	08-10-2004 05:01									#6
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quote: Originally posted by mart7x5 Fission chopper has still 4 points. Decreased has 3. Still usable.

What exactly could you use a chopper with 3 move points for?

quote: Originally posted by mart7x5 They would be excellent for defence in home base with only 4 points.

Pretty lame defense if you have to wait for them to get within 2 tiles of a base....you could use a rover to do the same.

quote: Originally posted by mart7x5 Yes, this is the point - multiple attacks of infantry, rovers or hovertanks are not felt this way, cause they have only 1,2,3 points, not 10 or more, as it is case for choppers. when choppers will have 4-10 only instead 10-16 they will still be better than hoovertank, so I wouldn't call it that much drawback.

Think of choppers having to make a return trip, thus halving the movement points. So 10-16 becomes 5-8.

quote: Originally posted by mart7x5 Increase cost - good idea. How much in order to make it still worth of building?

One word: Poll

	08-10-2004 05:28									#7
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I would go for a basic range of 5 or 6.

The still far distances they can cover with Quantum or Singularity power are a bit redundant since firstly not many PBEM's reach that tech era, and secondly grav ships are a far better tool for base conquest by then.

	08-10-2004 05:58									#8
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by livid imp Pretty lame defense if you have to wait for them to get within 2 tiles of a base....you could use a rover to do the same.

not always. Sometimes there are no roads. Rover can exhaust all of its 2 points for entering a fungus square only, and forget the attack, while copter will just use 1 point, 100 % succes of entering. Such copters are good for counterattack in periferry bases where there is fungus around, rocky terrain with no roads, etc. Still better than needlejet, which may attack once and stays there after attack.

3 points unity copter - I can scout up to 7 tiles with that. Presently having unity chopper = 8 i scout 17.
7 is satisfactory for me.

Copter would become more specific to some tasks. In many games presently chopper is just basic armament. All I need is "chop and drop". Its tiring for longer time. I am not afraid to take much of its power from choppers.

5 or 6 points. Less than 8.
5 gives with fusion 9 . Mostly to 5 tiles away base I would have 4 attacks.
4 units - one chopper
8 units - two choppers
then drop infantry or rover
last movement point lost for entering just conquered base.

4 attacks in a turn is still a lot.

	08-10-2004 06:18									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

Mars scenario is 6, the version I have.
I think I will try a game with choppers with heavily limmited points and see how it really feels. If I make them 20 with basic move 2 and they will turn out garbage then I will know.

	08-10-2004 07:12									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I like the idea they've adopted in the current ACDG. Chopper are not allowed to attack bases. No messing with alpha txt. I was thinking of trying to get this rule into play in all my future PBEM's. Does anyone else think this might be a good addition to the PBEM rules we generally play be here in poly?

	08-10-2004 23:44									#11
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Yes, I think that is a good idea.
Although you cannot ask AI not to do it, but it could extend to human players not attack AI bases with copters too.

	11-10-2004 22:00									#12
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The AI is at a severe disavantage to a human player anyway. Who cares if they can use choppers and humans can't. To be blunt, a decent player would never let the AI get that far anyway.

	12-10-2004 02:13									#13
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Here is something to try.
Copter scenario.
There are two predesigned new units:

Attack Copter, available with Mind/Machine interface, Missile armament. 6-1-2(basic modified with reactor)
Empath Copter, available with Biomachinery (I had to choose something), 1e-1-2(as above)

Ai may develop these designs with better reactors, I do not know it.

How to use it - just unzip Copter folder to "Scenarios" folder in game folder. Including the alphax.txt (it's imprtant!!!)

This scenario has severely limited copter movements points. just to let see how the play would look like with that feature.
AI is enhanced, so don't be surprised when they will make problems.
For anyone who would like to take part in this experiment. Write in your experiences.
Thanks

Attachment: copter.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	12-10-2004 04:02									#14
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Let's see what it gives...

	12-10-2004 04:10									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

Geo, be careful with AI. It has some tricks. Caution advised

	12-10-2004 06:43									#16
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Aaaarrrrgghhhh!!!! I'm killed!!!!!!!!!!

	19-10-2004 20:42									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm working on a mod with reduced air movepoints. You can read about it here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=123858

Needlejets get 7 movpoints with fission, and 'copters get 6. Add in doubled cost and 100% prototyping fee and they are fairly well balanced. I also plan to enhance native life breeding to make that more of an alternative to chop & drop tactics.

	23-10-2004 22:17									#18
	Tired of ads?

I think the problem is that movement and attack is one and the same. They should be segregated.

Ie. an attack rate should be 25% or non fixed to to the movement rate.

A chopper that moved 12 square should be only be able to attack two or three times.

	25-10-2004 21:39									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf I think the problem is that movement and attack is one and the same. They should be segregated.

I agree. The copters as they are, is simply a result of staying consistant with a simple system. A copter is nothing more than a hovertank with like a dozen moves and the 'flyer' flag. But perhaps the designers meant the copter to be over powered, forcing the players to adapt and build lots of SAM/AAA troops. The bigger problem is the fact that air defense costs so much more that air offense.

quote: Originally posted by Natalinasmpf A chopper that moved 12 square should be only be able to attack two or three times.

That sounds good until you realize that three attacks is about all a chopper can do. Considering that offensive to defense is about a 3 to 1 ratio. So, unless it is only attacking non-armored, or non-combat units, a chopper will get wore down after three attacks.
Still, three attacks at range, with no ZoC problems, all from a cheap unit is a bit too much.

	25-10-2004 21:47									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Interceptors are probably supposed to be the answer to copters, as they can cover a base radius worth of formers and crawlers. People don't use them much presumably because they're more expensive, are not terribly useful on offense apart from killing planes, and aren't particularly effective at defending against air. So what could be done to interceptors to make them more appealing?

	18-11-2004 17:50									#21
	Tired of ads?

Copters should be toned down heavily. I wouldn't even be disappointed if they were elminated entirely. They fill no purpose in the game that has the slightest grip on reality. 3 year missions? Flying around the globe? Better than fixed wing aircraft? Gimme a break.

The other thing that should be outlawed is overload - self-destruct. It breaks the already weak combat system.

	18-11-2004 18:45									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree with Sikander - I got rid of choppers entirely from my games. The CBA is another thing I nuked right from the start.

	18-11-2004 22:25									#23
	Got spare money?

I thought I had a fix with my "establishing air superiority prior to attacking with bombers" idea. I didn't get much feedback in that thread, but I still like it as a way to increase the value of interceptors while decreasing the value of bombers. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=124941

	19-11-2004 03:51									#24
	The answer is TurboSMAC! Increase the size of your Attachments

I know you don't like the "house rules" approach to eliminating the chopper problem, but TurboSmac is ready for beta testing now, so check it out here:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...threadid=125561