19-10-2004 05:20									#391
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Presumably just a particular subset of English English dialect though? The masses of English English dialects of the time would not be anywhere near being all-encompassed by today's southern US dialects.

	19-10-2004 05:21									#392
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Most of the colonists came from London and the Midlands. It's that set of accents to which he is referring (at the time).

	19-10-2004 09:59									#393
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: As for Boorstin, all history is written from a cultural perspective. If someone says Southern US accents represents the best English and that person is from the southern US then obviously the red flags go up. Does that mean he's wrong. Of course not, we have to be aware of the probable bias. He didn't say best. He said that the English of the time period spoke with what would be most recognized as a "Southern" accent today.

Could you give us the relevant quote from his book because you're giving us mixed messages.

Earlier you wrote:
"The English spoken in the colonies was far more uniform than spoken in England and much better spoken than the average Englishman .... This is all from The Americans by Boorstin."

(Better/best are both value judgements so same diff)

	19-10-2004 10:04									#394
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Most of the colonists came from London and the Midlands. It's that set of accents to which he is referring (at the time).

Perhaps, at the very earlier stages of English colonialisation, but later immigrants came from throughout Britain. Their accents would have influenced older American accents creating new accents that were far different from British accents. Next, throw in the Non-English European immigrants and American accents change even more.

The result is that the English spoken today (re: your last message) varies significantly from the English of the past.

	19-10-2004 10:30									#395
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quote: Originally posted by Sprayber It's not like learning English is some magical tool. You can teach a monkey to use sign language but it doesn't mean he will become a successful business man.

Yea, but he's going to have quite an advantage over all of those other businessmonkeys.

	21-10-2004 10:52									#396
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quote: Globalization and the Great Satan When heading to our local bookseller, we, the crack young staff of “The Hatemonger’s Quarterly,” are usually bombarded with sundry silly books on the topic of globalization. Many of these tomes, dear reader, attempt to blame these here United States of America for all the rancid pop culture that sullies the world. To be sure, we the crack young staff of “The Hatemonger’s Quarterly,” hate lowbrow fare as much as we hate some of the finer things in life—like NASCAR. So we certainly understand why the inhabitants of, say, Greenland, are irked that their native Greenlandish music is no longer broadcast on its radio stations, as Billy Joel has taken its place. That would really suck—especially if you inhabit a lifeless frozen tundra with a population of twelve. Talk about a downer. But we, the crack young staff of “The Hatemonger’s Quarterly,” feel as if America is almost always getting a bum rap. After all, the citizens of Greenland could have gloried in the orchestral magnificence of Aaron Copland; instead, they chose Michael Jackson. Their loss. Americans, that is to say, didn’t force the world to dress in the prostitute-esque fashion favored by this country’s youth. No one pointed a gun to their heads and shouted “Put this thong on or I’ll blow your brains out.” Yet there is another reason to exonerate the United States for its role in the mass production and export of feculent pop culture: America is not the only purveyor of such putrid trash. We know what our European readers are thinking: We come from cosmopolitan cultures with a great respect for the arts. To which we, the crack young staff of “The Hatemonger’s Quarterly,” respond: Yeah, we totally agree, if by “a great respect for the arts” you mean “horrendous hygiene.” As far as we are concerned, Europe hardly seems better than America in the wretched pop drivel department. Don’t believe us? Let us attempt to sway you by way of an example. When strolling through the World-Wide Web recently, one of our senior editors—let’s just call him “Chip”—stumbled upon the “website” of Phil Collins. You remember Phil Collins, dear reader: He’s the bald-headed twit who penned a cornucopia of inscrutably wretched “soft rock” tunes. We’d name a few of them, but just offering the titles may get the songs into your head, dear reader, and that would amount to what the Constitution considers cruel and unusual punishment. What was “Chip” doing perusing Phil Collins’ “website” in the first place, you ask? Why, he was hoping to find Starship’s “website,” of course. But we digress. On said “website,” “Chip” noticed that Phil Collins, the diminutive British chucklehead, has inspired six tribute bands. Yes, that’s right dear reader: Some folks are so desperate to hear “Another Day in Paradise” that they’ll actually pay their hard-earned money to see a diminutive chucklehead who isn’t Phil Collins perform the song. How, you may be asking yourselves, does this prove our (admittedly meandering) point? Well, Mr. Collins’ “website” has blithely listed the countries of origin of these noxious tribute bands: “Face Value” is based in the United Kingdom “In the Air Tonight” is based in Canada “Invisible Touch” is based in Germany “Phil” (there’s a real clever name!) is based in Germany “No Jacket Required” is based in the United Kingdom “Still Collins” is based in Germany So, dear reader, Phil Collins, the pathetic limey crooner, has spawned numerous feculent epigones—none of which hail from the United States. So, the next time some snooty Canadian (if you’ll pardon the redundancy) waxes indignant about the state of American pop culture, just tell him to check out his countrymen’s local Phil Collins cover band. That ought to shut him up faster than you can say “Sssudio.”

	21-10-2004 11:46									#397
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One thing we definitely don't have to worry about globalisation is the world being swamped by American "humour"

	21-10-2004 12:05									#398
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That's funny.

	21-10-2004 12:21									#399
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai One thing we definitely don't have to worry about globalisation is the world being swamped by American "humour"

I strongly doubt shows like 'the simpsons' will ever find an audience in exotic places like canada or the UK.

	21-10-2004 12:34									#400
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Last edited by Tingkai on 21-10-2004 at 12:43

	21-10-2004 20:29									#401
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"American "humour""

No such thing. It's "humor"

	21-10-2004 21:05									#402
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quote: So, dear reader, Phil Collins, the pathetic limey crooner, has spawned numerous feculent epigones—none of which hail from the United States. So, the next time some snooty Canadian (if you’ll pardon the redundancy) waxes indignant about the state of American pop culture, just tell him to check out his countrymen’s local Phil Collins cover band. That ought to shut him up faster than you can say “Sssudio.”

Such a "clever" way to evade the point. Could it be that Phil Collins would never have invaded foreign channels without cultural imperialism?

	21-10-2004 21:11									#403
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Could you give us the relevant quote from his book because you're giving us mixed messages. Earlier you wrote: "The English spoken in the colonies was far more uniform than spoken in England and much better spoken than the average Englishman .... This is all from The Americans by Boorstin." (Better/best are both value judgements so same diff)

There, I meant closer to the standard. By "better", I was talking about as they perceived it (with the aristocracy speaking the "best"). the average colonist spoke "better" than the average Englishman (which included the poor and stuff).

	21-10-2004 23:42									#404
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Well now you're saying "I was talking..." Before you said this was Boorstin's theory. Are you saying your theory is the same as his?

And given your previous statements that the southern US accent is closest to Elizabethan English, are you now contending that all the colonialists spoke with a southern US accent?

	22-10-2004 00:31									#405
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quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Such a "clever" way to evade the point. Could it be that Phil Collins would never have invaded foreign channels without cultural imperialism?

Then perhaps Chirac should be *****ing about the Brits in keeping with that proud French tradition/culture.

	22-10-2004 02:24									#406
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Well now you're saying "I was talking..." Before you said this was Boorstin's theory. Are you saying your theory is the same as his?

I'm when I present his theory (which I happen to think is correct), and I clarify my statements, it doesn't change the fact that I still presented his theory.

quote: And given your previous statements that the southern US accent is closest to Elizabethan English, are you now contending that all the colonialists spoke with a southern US accent?

Yes, obviously.

	22-10-2004 08:51									#407
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I wonder what chirac thinks of the mushrooming success of japanese cultural exports? Perhaps he'd prefer to ignore them as it would challenge his dire warnings of a world being choked by a US stranglehold monopoly of cultural exports?

	22-10-2004 10:25									#408
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Well now you're saying "I was talking..." Before you said this was Boorstin's theory. Are you saying your theory is the same as his? I'm when I present his theory (which I happen to think is correct), and I clarify my statements, it doesn't change the fact that I still presented his theory.

Relax dude. It looked like you were playing an old debate trick of making one statement saying "Boorstin said" and then making a contradictory statement saying "I said".

But you need to get your story straight. One minute you're claiming Boorstin said colonialist spoke the best English and then the next minute you arguing that he didn't say that.

Now look at the theory that colonialists all spoke with the same accents.

British accents vary, even within London. Somehow people with a variety of accents all manage to start speaking with one accent during the colonial period. Then after 1776, regional accents begin appearing, except in the south where the accent remains static.

How would you explain that because it doesn't make sense?

	22-10-2004 10:27									#409
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I've answered that before, they came from the Midlands and London.

	22-10-2004 10:47									#410
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So has Chiracs catastrophe happened yet? I mean the world has been over run by American values so surely it must have happened, right?

	22-10-2004 11:25									#411
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker I've answered that before, they came from the Midlands and London.

So? Accents varied in the Midlands and London. So why did these varied accents become uniformed in the colonial period only to diverge in the post-colonial period?

	22-10-2004 11:30									#412
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Ask him. I don't know. I do know he's backed up with primary-source stuff.

	22-10-2004 11:34									#413
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quote: Originally posted by Kuciwalker Ask him. I don't know. I do know he's backed up with primary-source stuff.

No he isn't. All the primary source 17th century accent evidence in the world wouldn't be sufficient to back up such a broad assertion as that all midlands and london era residents had a sort of southern accent which all colonists also shared.

	22-10-2004 11:45									#414
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I was talking about the uniformity of the accent, there, actually

And he very well can have evidence that people had the same accents - just look at what people of the time said.

Anyway, I'm tired of arguing a minor point in one chapter of a big book. If you care, read the chapter, if you don't, stop pestering me.