16-10-2004 18:39									#31
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man Good point about the 3 arrows strategy. I try to play following the DaveV size 2 method (maximize food at size 1, maximize shields at size 2).

Yes - I found the 2nd article "DaveV's View" more convincing than the "Three Arrow" one. Was there anything after that? If I am reading this thread correctly, most EL/MP players favor early beakers, but some EC players favor shields. Zenon values both, but I imagine he is closer to ICS than 3Arrow.

Is there a way to play test this, that would satisfy both EL and EC players? Perhaps a starting position like solo's with these rules:

1) You must choose 3Arrow or ICS
2) No specials or huts allowed.
3) The goal is to build MPE and HG asap.

Part 3) requires both beakers and shields, and wouldn't make the test TOO long. Hopefully, it fits normal EL and EC goals, but if not, I am open to alternatives. I will (help) play test this if people think it is a fair test. But I know ICS better than 3Arrow, so a 3Arrow player or two could help keep things fair.

	16-10-2004 19:02									#32
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Peaster Yes - I found the 2nd article "DaveV's View" more convincing than the "Three Arrow" one. Was there anything after that? If I am reading this thread correctly, most EL/MP players favor early beakers, but some EC players favor shields. Zenon values both, but I imagine he is closer to ICS than 3Arrow. Is there a way to play test this, that would satisfy both EL and EC players? Perhaps a starting position like solo's with these rules: 1) You must choose 3Arrow or ICS 2) No specials or huts allowed. 3) The goal is to build MPE and HG asap. Part 3) requires both beakers and shields, and wouldn't make the test TOO long. Hopefully, it fits normal EL and EC goals, but if not, I am open to alternatives. I will (help) play test this if people think it is a fair test. But I know ICS better than 3Arrow, so a 3Arrow player or two could help keep things fair.

I tend to play the DaveV size2 method for a few reasons. Obviously, no system will work perfectly every time, and some extrapolations don't make sense in a real game. But I do find the DaveV/maximize shields approach will produce more cities faster, and more cities obviously means more production and more arrows (even incidentally) over time, as the analysis in the article shows.

However - I am not above switching to a beaker-focused approach once I get to 6 cities and unrest starts to become a problem (usually HG prevents this problem, though). And on that point, maximizing shields has the added advantage of allowing you to build Wonders and improvements faster - to take advantage of those beakers you do have, and to keep unrest under control.

	16-10-2004 19:24									#33
	Inflate your Upload Space

For rapid expansion, I like food at size 1 and shields at size 2 with one modification. Outer cities close to where I want new ones will maximize shields to build new settlers faster, while others no longer busy doing this work more on beakers. I think it's been pretty much proven that the more cities you can get as early as possible, the better. I think size 1 food, size 2 shields accomplishes this the most quickly.

Even with this said, I'll also cheat a bit towards beakers if this will get me a better Oedo year for Monarchy. It's silly to stress beakers and just miss one of these years when another settler or two could have been built more quickly.

Last edited by solo on 16-10-2004 at 19:30

	16-10-2004 19:51									#34
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Some context ...

quote: I think one thing hasn't been mentioned yet. This is La Fayette's Three Arrow strategy (Great Library). I will drop the first two cities as soon as I find sites that yield three or more arrows each. This way, progress towards Monarchy is assured.

Folk are talking past each other a lot, I think. Three Arrows is about and was mentioned in the context of quickly getting to Monarchy. After that, a shield focused ICS might be the best way. And solo correctly points out what quicker means, that you hit an earlier Oedo cycle.

Monk

	16-10-2004 22:36									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Three Arrows is about and was mentioned in the context of quickly getting to Monarchy. After that, a shield focused ICS might be the best way. Monk

Agreed
(though I never play ICS, because I hate looking at black faces... and probably bend to a lean approach "à la solo", even in conquest games)