08-10-2004 21:44									#1
	How far would you walk for Whale? Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

From some recent posts -

a) How far should I walk for a whale?
b) To stop a riot, use an Elvis or an Elephant?
c) To mine hills or to settle?

If you are willing to accept some assumptions, and a little math, here are some answers . But if combat formulas, for example, put you to sleep , then please read no further.

The assumptions are - that you mainly want a lot of shields per turn from your cities, with beakers counting less and you don't care much about city size. And the values are about

1 Shield = 1.2 Beakers = 2 gold = 1.4 arrow = 0.4 turns of labor (by 1 settler or ele)

a) 20 turns! I assume the terrain nearby is just grass, so Option 1) is to settle now, and build a new settler in about 20 more turns, which will also settle nearby. Option 2) is to walk 20 turns to the whale, and settle. With a whale and perhaps a forest, the new city will produce every 10 turns, matching the 2 cities of Option 1). I see some objections coming -

- 1) may require extra militia for defense/peace.
- 2) may cause more corruption/waste.
- 1) saves the distant whale for future settlers.

Conclusion: It seems unlikely that a settler couldn't find a good square closer than 20 turns. But in general, yes - I'd walk a long way for a good special.

b) Elvis costs one city square. I'll assume this is a forest, adding two shields per turn to the city. That's 0.8 ele/turn of labor, so it the cheaper option. A phalanx would be cheaper than the Elvis. If the Elvis square is ocean (102), then the cost is 30 per cent less, about the same as a phalanx or horseman.

Conclusion: Base your decision on whether the unit is needed elsewhere, but do not build ele's in advance just to use them as militia. Prefer warriors/Elvi's/horse in that order.

c) Mining hills takes 10 turns IIRC, which is a cost of 10/0.4 = 25 shields. Assume mines will add about 1.5s/t to production. Using interest theory (assuming 5 per cent/t) the future production is worth about 12 s right now, and not worth the labor costs (these should also be reduced about 30 per cent though).

Conclusion: don't mine hills, unless

- you don't want more cities or
- the current cities are truly pathetic (eg in swamps) or
- the settler needs over 8 turns to find other work

Warning - this is by an ICSer, playing for early conquest on Deity. Results may vary. Constructive criticism is preferred over silence.

	09-10-2004 00:32									#2
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But silence is golden - which should equal 1/2 a shield?

Anyway, I brake at the assumption: "...you mainly want a lot of shields per turn from your cities, with beakers counting less...". I go for trade arrows over shields, knowing I can allocate them to beakers and gold, which I can use to buy shields. I can also use it to pacify citizens with luxuries, if need be. I've had cities with only 1 shield to build with per turn; the labor force is focused on trade, which ups my trade routes as well. I can also store gold in the treasury for later use, which I cannot do with shields.

As to the original subject, I'd go 8-10 turns to start my first capital with a Whale. Two would be even nicer, but not worth doubling the walk. I would not walk a settler that far to get another - early on I want the cities close to the capital to minimize corruption, allow quick settling and mutual defense. Also allows faster shipment of early caravans back to the wonder building city. Later on I'll spread out more, especially once Democracy eliminates worries about corruption.

Last edited by Elephant on 09-10-2004 at 00:37

	09-10-2004 01:43									#3
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Beakers are king. Almost any trade special will work.
But it's nice seeing a whale on your opening screen.

I'm will to search a few extra turns to find a trade special.

Getting out of despotism as quick as possible is quite advantagous against real opponents.

	09-10-2004 04:18									#4
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Elephant (Apolyton) = ElephantU (CivFanatics)?

Well, I am glad you don't really believe that stuff about silence being golden. Blank forums would be pretty boring.

@rah and ele: I know you guys are masters of civ2 and I respect your opinions a lot, but I need to be convinced about this trade arrow business. DaveV laid out ICS so clearly that I can easily get a handle on it, and am pretty confident that a shield is worth more than an arrow, at least in that system. Also the designers let us divide trade arrows into beakers and gold with the implicit assumption that 1 gold is worth roughly 1 beaker. So, it seems a shield should be worth more than either a gold or a beaker.

Another point - if you are going to use gold for rush-building, you are going to spend about 2.5 gold per shield. I understand your point (ele) about gold being easier to spend than shields, though.

Can anyone explain why a would-be conqueror needs trade arrows so much? I understand the need for advances such as monarchy, trade etc, but they seem to come soon enough to me.

@rah - unfortunately I know nothing about real opponents. Maybe I'll try MP some day, though.

@ele - I think the guy asking about the whale
was assuming that it was visible and that all the nearby terrain was pretty bland, with no specials. Which is not too realistic. For practical play, I agree more with your 8-10 turn rule of thumb than with my own answer.

	09-10-2004 11:01									#5
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Let's assume we are talking about your first city.

Moving your settler for at least five turns to found on a site with access to a whale seems to me to be a no brainer. If your current site is as bland as you suggest, it will produce one beaker per turn and hence take ten turns to discover your first technology. The whale site will produce two beakers per turn and hence if you can get there in five turns or less you break even by the discovery of your first tech and after that your in profit.

But you could be moving through turn after turn of plains, hills, mountains, jungle, swamp, etc. How do you know about this whale? Are you assuming the use of black clicking and hut-finder? I spit on such black arts.

In a real game, I'd actually settle on the first spot I could find with enough food to make it a viable site and discover the whale later.

Perhaps we are talking about founding a city on explored territory later in the game. Then it depends on the game circumstances. I don't play an ICS strategy, so I'm not founding a a city for the sake of founding a city. 20 turns is too far to make a station city. If I'm looking for production, forests give me 3 shields once I build a railroad and I can grow the city by celebration, so 20 turns for a shield producing city also seems a bit too far to go. Perhaps it's a colony city. I'd probably travel 20 turns for a whale site on a different continent, although I'd like it to be close to another civ so that I could take a van with me for trade purposes.

RJM at Sleeper's

	09-10-2004 19:40									#6
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quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers Perhaps we are talking about founding a city on explored territory later in the game. RJM at Sleeper's

That's more of what I had in mind, really. You have a few cities, already in the best locations, and a horseman has found a whale, maybe 10-12 squares away. Do you go? And what seems more important to me is - how do you make an informed decision? My bland-grassland hypothesis makes the problem a bit unrealistic, but relatively simple to solve. If there is a river (etc) 4 squares away, then that could change the answer, but the same method can be used to make the decision.

You like beakers, too? I played for EL last night, just to see how EL players might think. I guess I can see the need for many beakers even in the opening, for EL.

But not just for monarchy. For example, getting it 20 per cent earlier (say 6 turns) might increase production by 25 per cent for that period. But getting 20 per cent more shields/growth in the 30 turns before monarchy would help more (at least for conquest, which I understand better).

Any other early conquest players out there? I studied the games of DaveV (very carefully) and Zenon (not as much so) who were the fastest 2 conquests in the August tournament. I didn't notice any trade routes. So, I am skeptical that EC players need them.

	10-10-2004 09:18									#7
	Mined hills Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I seldom mine anything in the very early game - I'll do it later when I have a few cities down, just before switching to republic. And extra shields are often more useful than an extra city at that point, especially when unrest and corruption are factors. IMO.

However...
I am one of the devotees of the mined city square trick (for the uninitiated: put a settler on a hill/mountain, start mining. Before the mine is complete, use a second settler to found a city on the same tile. The result, when the mine is finished, will be a roaded/irrigated and mined tile - some call this a cheat). If the sweet spot of a 3 or 4 special group is a hill, I'll often start a mine and found there. In the early game, this city can produce a lot of shields at size 1 and 2, great for the construction of early wonders or Caravans.

I am still waiting for the elusive rivered hill in the middle of a 4-special sweet spot.

As for the other questions of this thread - I'd walk a long way looking for whales, or a good sweet spot. The advantage of walking is that it isn't truly wasted time - you can gather NONs, cash or techs with no fear of barbarians. Again IMO.

Elephant as martial law unit? No thanks. I seldom build Elephants to leave in my cities. A horseman will do well against most early barbarian units, and produces the same martial law effect, of course.

	13-10-2004 14:05									#8
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I like playing both early landing and early conquest. But my opening strategy is not very different in both games until I have built MPE.

If I am sure I want to play EL I would walk in the beginning only to make sure I donīt found my city and spoil the SSC site. Otherwise the terrain would have to be pretty bad to make me walk more than 2 or 3 turns in the dark.

I also donīt base my opening on a more trade based or more shield based strategy. If I have the choice I want to have both grassland and forest close to my cities. Hills are no favorites, they take to long to mine.

Generally I use what specials I find. Trade or shields, both are valuable and it doesnīt make sense to walk for a long time, just to find a different kind of special. I think this is what most players do.

What is most important for me in both games: to expand quickly, get Monarchy at the latest before I found my 5th city, have as many specials in my city limits as possible. Trade specials often are in the limits of several cities and help each city with the delivery bonus in an EL game.

Once the build up phase is complete there is of cause a huge difference. The EL Game is trade based and the conquest is shield based only.

Walking 10 turns for a whale? Only if the terrain is very bad or if the city placement has an additional strategic reason. I want to have my cities close together to avoid corruption and allow early roads to connect them.

Zenon

	14-10-2004 08:30									#9
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@6000 - The mined city trick sounds pretty cool. I never heard of that.

@zenon - I have studied your August conquest game a little more. I like your opening style. It doesn't seem far from ICS to me. I rarely build the Pyramids or Mike's, but it worked well for you, so I will give that a try.

About the whale, we have a discussion going on in the GOTM 45 spoiler thread, which seems related. There is a choice in that map of settling in a swamp (near a whale) or irrigating the swamp first, which takes 15 turns. From testing (and from the math) I think irrigating first is slow but better.

I agree that beakers and specials are important. But which is better (for conquest) with a size 2 city - a forest or a fish ? I'd ignore the food aspect, and pick the forest, but maybe I'm alone on that.

	14-10-2004 10:08									#10
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If this is a Conquest game and you absolutely must settle in a swamp, mining may be a better choice than irrigating. I'd rather have the shields (from the resulting forest).

As to the primary question, I agree with Zenon. Only if there was nothing in between (very unlikely) would I delay things by walking a dozen turns for one whale. If it was a multiple special site or a strategic chokepoint, that might tip the decision. But, and in general, I think building quicker and closer is better.

There is also the situation that rah has often mentioned in a small rock game -v- other humans where staking out your territory early and filling in the gap later is the way to go. But, that is not a worry against the AI: here kitty, kitty, kitty.

Monk

	14-10-2004 11:14									#11
	Re: Walking for whales Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man As for the other questions of this thread - I'd walk a long way looking for whales, or a good sweet spot. The advantage of walking is that it isn't truly wasted time - you can gather NONs, cash or techs with no fear of barbarians. Again IMO.

True, but under the strict early landing rules, there is no hut tipping, so walking your settler a long distance has a much higher opportunity cost.

RJM at Sleeper's

	14-10-2004 20:01									#12
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I am another that believes it's better to found the initial cities earlier rather than search for whales or other elusive specials. Great sites can be found by exploring units, and used later when expanding. Meanwhile, progress is being made towards Monarchy and early city growth.

	14-10-2004 20:30									#13
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But trade specials will get you to Monarchy considerably quicker, which can make expansion quicker. In an SP game 4 to 8 extra turns is nothing, but in MP it's a big advantage. So wandering a few turns can be beneficial, unless you don't find anything

	14-10-2004 21:05									#14
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Yes, rah, a few turns in the beginning is often more than made up for by finding a special, but later in the game, which seemed to be the focus of the question, I think the calculus comes up differently, especially a dozen turns.

Echoing what solo said about dropping the first cities quickly--especially for Early Landing games-- having the SSC further down the list is a very good thing. Since most of your research will have been completed by the SSC, many beakers, from the next few cities,that would have been wasted had the SSC been the first city, are now carried over for the next turn. So finding that 4-special site later in the game is not a bad deal at all.

Monk

	14-10-2004 21:32									#15
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It mostly depends on the starting position. If there is:

1) Some grassland or a food special
2) Accessible river or ocean tiles for trade arrows

I will build a connecting road (for an extra arrow or 2) and then found two cities immediately afterwards. They will usually be size two by the time a choice site might be found. My new citizens can be put on additional trade producing tiles. The total arrows will usually be the same or exceed a trade special site founded later and this assumes that wandering does locate a good trade special in enough time to make it worth the trip.

If the initial site lacks any potential for quick growth or some trade, then I'll wander, too, but in most cases there is enough usuable terrain to get things going earlier.

	14-10-2004 23:37									#16
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Agreed, later placement is better planned.
ANother big difference is that in MP we play 2x so for a fast start you don't need the perfect location. One trades special is enough. If it's land based, we have a tendency to plant the city right on it, so our opponents don't come along and settle on it depriving you city of it. This is usually the provocation for some intense fighting and fun. Especially if it's that gold near by.

	15-10-2004 00:51									#17
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Right! With 2x it is even better to found early, since you get a jump on production, too.

Peaster,

Below is a save of the start from a recent game I played. There were not any whales or other specials within view, but I considered the area fine for initial cities. Later, I did discover that exploring in almost any direction uncovered a whale or trade special of equal value. In fact, there were 3 accessible whales not too far from the opening position. With this start, and without looking for or using whales, I got to Monarchy in 2050 BC. You may want to try it the other way, just to compare, i.e. find your whale(s) and see if you can get to Monarchy any sooner. To eliminate the random luck factor, do not tip any huts, since I didn't tip any either. Here is screenshot.

Attachment: test.jpg
This has been downloaded 91 time(s).

	15-10-2004 00:52									#18
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Oh, and here is a save of the start.

Attachment: test.sav
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	15-10-2004 03:27									#19
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I am glad this has provoked such a lively discussion, but I wish I had stated the question more clearly. I was not thinking of the starting position. I was assuming the whale was visible and that all the nearby, unused terrain was pretty useless. [see reply to rjm].

Also, getting to monarchy is a high priority for me, but birthing cities is even higher. [see shield vs beaker remarks]

Anyway, I accept your challenge! I will let you know about my monarchy and growth rate stats.

	15-10-2004 04:54									#20
	Re: Re: Walking for whales Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers True, but under the strict early landing rules, there is no hut tipping, so walking your settler a long distance has a much higher opportunity cost. RJM at Sleeper's

I didn't realize this was an early landing question. Doesn't seem like much fun, having to ignore all the huts!

I am a big believer in getting cities down fast - I like to spit settlers out pretty fast and get to 5-6 cities quickly. However... there are ways to catch up if a nice city site isn't visible at the start. If you find some NONs in huts, you have instant garrison/martial law units and when you found a city, you can start a Settler right away. Or if you come up with some cash in huts, you can rush Settlers and catch up that way.

The other problem I have with founding on indifferent starting terrain is that when I finally do find some specials, the corruption makes them much less useful. For the same reason, I've stopped sending my Settlers in opposite directions when looking for city sites - because the second city will contribute virtually no arrows in the early game.

All this is based on SP... in MP, on small maps, I'm sure that wandering more than 2-3 turns is near suicidal.

@ Peaster - if the whale is visible, its not much of a walk... I'd definitely found my city in such a way as to take advantage of the whale.

	15-10-2004 05:53									#21
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@solo: I did 4 tests. Only Test B seems really worth reporting, but here's the all the data. After Test A), I decided to use 1650BC as a benchmark year to compare civ size, etc. I did not make special efforts to get trade arrows, except to get monarchy in pre-oedo years.

In test A), I could not find a whale for 16 turns! Also, Rome had a 4-5 turn Elvis concert when a warrior came back way too late - because I almost forgot the no huts rule.

I think B) seems a fair test. I aimed my settlers at darkness and found one whale in 3750. I didn't find a second until 2750 (after my 3rd city).

In C) I cheated, and went straight for the 2 whales that I knew about.

In D) I played according my usual style, probably similar to the way you played the test. But I never saw a whale. Also, a barbarian archer threw me off quite a bit, killing three warriors on a mountain, before I could finish him. I should probably repeat D), but I'm a little tired.


A) [Bad luck]
* Monarchy in 1450, 5 cities + 1.6 settlers (2 very soon)

B) Random walk until whale(s) spotted
* Monarchy in 2050, 5 cities + 1.9 settlers
* By 1650, 7 cities, 19sh/t

C) [Cheat!]
* Monarchy in 2050
* By 1650, 7 cities + 1Settler, 22sh/t

D) Playing normally, with rather bad luck
* Monarchy in 1650, 5 cities + 1 settler, 17sh/t

	15-10-2004 07:31									#22
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Peaster,

I think B) is a good comparison, and if one can be sure a whale is within easy reach (sorry I missed your comment on that), then I'll agree that it's probably worth walking over to it.

In a game where huts are being used, there can be a slight advantage to founding cities first, since this opens up earlier chances of nomads and tribes, which mean instant cities. Plus if huts are deferred until the 2nd tech is being researched, the first tech coming from a hut will actually speed up the progress to Monarchy, since no detours will have to made when researching the next two. The only downside is the chance of tipping barbs.

If huts are tipped before founding any cities, barbs are avoided, but unwelcome techs this early will delay Monarchy quite a bit. Before learning the first tech, the odds favor tipping unwanted techs, too.

	15-10-2004 07:39									#23
	Re: Re: Re: Walking for whales Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Six Thousand Year Old Man I didn't realize this was an early landing question. Doesn't seem like much fun, having to ignore all the huts!

The original question wasn't in an early landing context. I suppose I meant to say "if you happen to be playing an early landing game, there is no hut tipping ..."

As to whether ignoring huts is fun, that depends on the game. It certainly makes no sense to ignore them if you are playing a conquest game (I originally said you should only ignore them if there is a rule against hut tipping, but Solo has pointed out that you may still choose to ignore them under some circumstances in a landing game.)

RJM at Sleeper's

	15-10-2004 12:01									#24
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quote: Originally posted by solo Below is a save of the start from a recent game I played. There were not any whales or other specials within view, but I considered the area fine for initial cities. Later, I did discover that exploring in almost any direction uncovered a whale or trade special of equal value. In fact, there were 3 accessible whales not too far from the opening position. With this start, and without looking for or using whales, I got to Monarchy in 2050 BC. You may want to try it the other way, just to compare, i.e. find your whale(s) and see if you can get to Monarchy any sooner. To eliminate the random luck factor, do not tip any huts, since I didn't tip any either. Here is screenshot.

I tried this. Without knowing the location of the whales I founded my first city in the start position and moved my settler west, founding my second city on the river. This lead to Monarchy in 2150 BC. I tried again, this time moving the first settler to take advantage of the whale site and still building the second city on the river. City three exploited the second whale and city four was on the river. This time I got to Monarch in 2250 BC. (Actually I discovered Monarchy in 2350 BC, so I didn't need to max out beakers quite as much as I did.)

This seems to establish (IMHO) that it's worth moving for the whale site.

RJM at Sleeper's

	15-10-2004 18:10									#25
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rjm: do you remember any other statistics from your tests ? eg how many cities you had?

	15-10-2004 21:43									#26
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quote: Originally posted by rjmatsleepers This seems to establish (IMHO) that it's worth moving for the whale site. RJM at Sleeper's

Establish??

Not unless there are actually whales to be found close by, something that you will not know when the game begins.

All this establishes (IMHO) is that if you get lucky you will do better. If you don't find those whales then you will be behind. Some games there seems to be a whale every 4-5 tiles; in others whales are more scarce than RL oceans after the Japanese whaling fleet has done its thing.

I think one thing hasn't been mentioned yet. This is La Fayette's Three Arrow strategy (Great Library). I will drop the first two cities as soon as I find sites that yield three or more arrows each. This way, progress towards Monarchy is assured.

Monk

	16-10-2004 03:03									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Establish?? Not unless there are actually whales to be found close by, something that you will not know when the game begins. All this establishes (IMHO) is that if you get lucky you will do better. If you don't find those whales then you will be behind. Some games there seems to be a whale every 4-5 tiles; in others whales are more scarce than RL oceans after the Japanese whaling fleet has done its thing. I think one thing hasn't been mentioned yet. This is La Fayette's Three Arrow strategy (Great Library). I will drop the first two cities as soon as I find sites that yield three or more arrows each. This way, progress towards Monarchy is assured. Monk

Good point about the 3 arrows strategy. I try to play following the DaveV size 2 method (maximize food at size 1, maximize shields at size 2). Obviously having a whale is the best of all worlds - a whale would get worked if you were seeking to maximize any of food, shields or arrows. But sans whale or fish, your growth will be pretty slow with that second worker on the ocean.

Playing on big maps, I will often start on completely landlocked terrain - no rivers or oceans visible, and sometimes none within 2-3 turns walking or more. In such a case... would any of us settle in a location with no arrows at all? I'll always walk to find some kind of special - even if not a whale - or at least a river.

	16-10-2004 03:25									#28
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Obviously.

Monk

	16-10-2004 10:59									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Peaster rjm: do you remember any other statistics from your tests ? eg how many cities you had?

I used my standard approach which is to build a warrior followed by a settler in each of my first two cities. I then build 2 more cities each of which gets a warrior (or sometimes a phalanx). I prepare to build a fifth city as soon as I can revolt to monarchy. However, I stopped playing these games when I revolted to Monarchy, so in each case I had only four cities. The only other statistic I remember is that I discovered my second tech in 3400 BC in the non-whale test and in 3450 BC when I used the whale.

In the "whale case" I maxed out beakers once I was researching Monarchy - 3 beakers from 2 of my cities and 2 from the other 2, to give me 10 beakers per turn towards the 60 needed. This was perhaps a bit OTT.

RJM at Sleeper's

	16-10-2004 11:12									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Bloody Monk Establish?? Not unless there are actually whales to be found close by, something that you will not know when the game begins. All this establishes (IMHO) is that if you get lucky you will do better. If you don't find those whales then you will be behind. Some games there seems to be a whale every 4-5 tiles; in others whales are more scarce than RL oceans after the Japanese whaling fleet has done its thing. I think one thing hasn't been mentioned yet. This is La Fayette's Three Arrow strategy (Great Library). I will drop the first two cities as soon as I find sites that yield three or more arrows each. This way, progress towards Monarchy is assured. Monk

Yes, "establish" is a bit strong. It is crucial that you "know" there is a good site reasonably close and in my first try from this start I didn't actually find the nearby whales in time for my second city. Of course on my second try, I knew exactly where the whales and the river were which does make it a bit easier.

I can't remember the details of the Three Arrows - sorry LF. Certainly city sites that produce 3 arrows and hence 2 beakers are the key to early discovery of monarchy. This little experiment has made me more inclined to walk around a bit at the begining if the initial site will only produce a single beaker. (I'm not sure whether I'd have the courage to do it in a competition game though!)

RJM at Sleeper's

[Edit: As far as three arrow sites are concerned, I mean sites that produce 3 arrows (2 beakers) with your worker in a normal position - ie not on an ocean tile without a special.]