09-10-2004 04:43									#1
	The Vintage Decade (2140 - 2149) - Musings Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Does everyone else have the same feeling that the game is about to enter a new phase, bursting wide open?

We met the Gaians in 2140, have a Treaty with them, and are discussing tech trades

We are about to get the Angels commlink from Yang (or maybe the Gaians - Kass, you should follow up on that, as they might like the 25 ec's rather than us giving it to Yang. I take Maniac's point about giving Lal's being as good as giving Zak's to the Gaians, so maybe approach them and say that we're on the point of buying it from Yang in 2141, but will hold off if they'd like the 25 ec's instead. And that the Lal commlink is off the table as 'twas only good for that one turn they dithered with)

Our Probe expedition aboard the SNC Hermes is poised to set sail in 2141 to infiltrate Zak

SCC Hunter is, I'm convinced, on the right track to meet Morgan either this turn or next.

neat, eh?

	09-10-2004 05:29									#2
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmm, right, I'll start up a new thread in the meeting room to attract attention to the commlink transfer.

	09-10-2004 10:23									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Oh Yea. The game is going to definetly take a few twists. I'm sure of it.
Let us not dither ourselves in the diplomatic department (pound war council room table)!
Diplomacy is the second strongest weapon in our arsenal. Let us wield it skillfully and in a timely fashion (glare in all your eyes)!
Else we will be left behind the first curve...
:grave concern:

	11-10-2004 10:45									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I just looked at all the team rosters again.
Since the other teams "should not be aware" of our current activitry level. Then, if I were to look at things from their perspective; we look like the scariest bunch.
I don't want to always sound pessemistic, but, we should always keep the idea that the others may see things this way also.

Diplomacy is the second strongest weapon in any one's aresenal in multi-player games. We mustn't allow the other three to eventually consider us such a threat as that they should consider to band together against us. Let's thread skillfully and wisely...



Edit:

Damn... I just noticed that I'm repeating some of the things I said in the post above. Sorry...

Last edited by KrysiasKrusader on 11-10-2004 at 11:19

	20-10-2004 08:10									#5
	Suffering from ads?

I'm trying to take a step back and work out why this game has stalled.

That's right, stalled.

If I'm Morgan, I've only met 2 other factions, and one won't talk to me (Hive) and the other won't talk any trades with me (Sparta). Not much fun there

If I'm the Gaians, For 40 years I've only been in contact with the Hive - who I am fighting - and the Angels. Until Sparta comes along, we do a trade of a couple of key techs, then nothing - except I get 50 ec's for giving them the right to trade the high-level tech I just traded to them (under an intense amoung of pressure, with "the turn being held open") but yet I feel hoodwinked 'cos the Spartans most certainly got a lot more of vallue from Lal than a measly 50 ec's. And now they won't talk trade to me.

If I'm the Angels. then I'm Gaia inversely. For forty years I only talk to Yang or to the Gaians, then the G's sell me the Spartans' commlink, and I call, but the line goes dead

The problem we have is that Sparta has too quickly become too powerful!!

Consider:

• We and the Uni are the only factions to have a level 4 tech (and we are soon going to get a second)
  
• We're the only faction to have the commlinks of all other six factions - and the other 3 human teams have only 2 (Morgan) or 3 (Angels and Gaians)
  
• We're Treatied with all 3 AI factions, and with 2 of the 3 human teams
  
• We're dominating ocean exploration, and a s a result, probe operations

We're just too darn powerful. We have almost an embarrassment of riches, but are unwilling to agree among ourselves what to trade away. Hence my lead-in comment. We're stalled. And for how long will we jealously guard these techs?

G GLIE

Last edited by Googlie on 20-10-2004 at 08:18

	20-10-2004 09:06									#6
	Got spare money?

Hmmm...

Good post.



I'm typing...

	20-10-2004 09:30									#7
	Remove this text

How did we end up so powerful? Isn't it really just because Sparta is an early game faction - it's the faction you do rover rushes and stuff with. The industry penalty starts to hurt on the long run and the economy will never keep up to the others.

	20-10-2004 09:36									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

But we haven't "rover-rushed" anyone.

Admittedly, we made an inspired choice going for flex rather than the Infonets/ind base >>> Ind Auto route

And we've acquired some key techs thru shrewd AI trades (Planetary Networks that let us get our probes up and running; Gene Splicing that we parlayed into ind Auto then into Ethical Calculus)

I'm not saying that our "power"position is a fluke, just that we're putting a chokehold on the others that can't be much fun

	20-10-2004 09:55									#9
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Okay. People have posted in the meanwhile (laugh!). So I'll make another post instead of editing my previous one...

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'm trying to take a step back and work out why this game has stalled. That's right, stalled.

quote: If I'm Morgan, I've only met 2 other factions, and one won't talk to me (Hive) and the other won't talk any trades with me (Sparta). Not much fun there

I guess I'll have to go to the embassy and see what the different dates are on all the posts...

Actually, I may as well do that for all three ambassies, while I'm at it...

Looks to me like it's kind of both ways. But Morgan looks like the easiest to deal with. then again what looks like one thing to me, is often seen different by the rest of the Junta.

quote: If I'm the Gaians, For 40 years I've only been in contact with the Hive - who I am fighting - and the Angels. Until Sparta comes along, we do a trade of a couple of key techs, then nothing - except I get 50 ec's for giving them the right to trade the high-level tech I just traded to them (under an intense amoung of pressure, with "the turn being held open") but yet I feel hoodwinked 'cos the Spartans most certainly got a lot more of vallue from Lal than a measly 50 ec's. And now they won't talk trade to me.

Okay. But I still have the Angels I can talk to, and of which I've been doing so for so long. Since the Spartans seem to be aware of this, that's probably why they are leary of trading with me. Besides, they sent me a threat, and told me that they have an anti-Gain faction within the Junta. Although, I said it was no problem - I'd rather trust the Angels with who'm (presumably) this has not happened, and I've already been dealing with (and probably) already coordinating research with.

quote: If I'm the Angels. then I'm Gaia inversely. For forty years I only talk to Yang or to the Gaians, then the G's sell me the Spartans' commlink, and I call, but the line goes dead

Call again. If I don't feel like it, see my response for Gaia (but take out the threatening message).

quote: The problem we have is that Sparta has too quickly become too powerful!! Consider: We and the Uni are the only factions to have a level 4 tech (and we are soon going to get a second) We're the only faction to have the commlinks of all other six factions - and the other 3 human teams have only 2 (Morgan) or 3 (Angels and Gaians) We're Treatied with all 3 AI factions, and with 2 of the 3 human teams We're dominating ocean exploration, and a s a result, probe operations We're just too darn powerful. We have almost an embarrassment of riches, but are unwilling to agree among ourselves what to trade away. Hence my lead-in comment. We're stalled. And for how long will we jealously guard these techs?

I suppose it is perception. To me; if what you say is all correct - this is a good thing for Sparta.

- The level 4 techs are impressive, but it is only temporary, cause the builder factions will catch up (and pass both us and Zakharov). This is still the (middle part) of the early game.

- Our diplomatic standings with most of the others shows that we have been quite successful at getting out there and making contact. I just went through the embassies, there's a post where Kassiopeia says that this was part of our early game strategy. So, as far as I can see, that part worked!

- I'm not of the same opinion about actually "dominating the seas". We were out there first, probably. And we don't, nor probably ever will, be able to control enemy probe operations.

Personally; I don't think that were too powerful. Perhaps we "look" powerful, but the others don't really know this. So far, as you have pointed out so well, we're doing pretty good!

Concerning the stall: If the other three human factions are not really going anywhere, this is in turn good for us. It will give us a chance to broaden our core bases, improve our terraforming, build troops for a possible invasion, etc. The longer the builder factions are "stalled", the more time we have to prepare to overwhelm them.

quote: G GLIE

Your lucky you have a name where you can put smilies in it. I have to admit, it's quite original.
I wonder if I can do anything like that with mine...?


Edit: Hey look! It only took me 49 minutes to type all this (from the time on this post to the time on my previous one). I'm getting better!

	20-10-2004 15:04									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'm not saying that our "power"position is a fluke, just that we're putting a chokehold on the others that can't be much fun

This is an interesting discussion, but with what little I know, I think you are over-reacting.

Once the builders get in touch with each other, they will start cooperating. Thanks to going for Doc-Flex early on, we have this opening advantage. But the other teams surely have other advantages. The Morgans have the HGP for instance and the Gaians have the WP. The Angels can probe techs from the Uni for sure, they just haven't had time yet.

We need to jelously hold on to our riches for now, we'll need the edge later on. What we do with it will determine what chances we have later on.

If I were in one of the other teams, I would enjoy plotting to put us down

	20-10-2004 23:30									#11
	Support Apolyton

I didn't mention a few things on purpouse, cause they're not apparent at this stage in the game.

The Gaians are probably the easiest human faction to pop-boom. And if they know what they're doing, they'll be in a permanent pop-boom the whole game. When they reach their habitation complex limits, they can still spread laterally by pod-booming.

The Morganites should get the PTS SP. This is practically a must have SP for these guys. Once they do, it will solve so many of their early game problems. Watch their power graph jump once they complete it. They, also, can spread laterally once they have this indefinetly. Morgan, doesn't even need to be in FREE MARKET to get the +2 energy cultivation per square.

The Angels (admitedly I have less experience in, cause I only got SMAX two years ago). But once they have infiltration (by any of different means) they have a hybrid PDL SP. There is no way they can then be left behind in the tech race. They are also quite a good builder faction.

Last edited by KrysiasKrusader on 20-10-2004 at 23:37

	21-10-2004 17:53									#12
	Got spare money?

We're doomed!

	21-10-2004 18:18									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Do I detect that the Gaian champion may be thinking that an early Morgan invasion may now be the way to go?

	21-10-2004 18:22									#14
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

It would be very good for us on the short term, but it would definitely lead to a 2-to-1 situation not in our favour.

	21-10-2004 18:52									#15
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Hmm

A quick "kill"of Zak, then make him submissive (while he still just has a handful of bases), then turn on Morgan (before they get perim defenses and better than level 3 armor or fusion). We need missile or chaos troops, with amphibious capability landing from cruiser transports

Maybe the Gaians and Angels are tied up with the Hive? And Lal is a bit too far away right now to present a credible threat to us.

So if this were a mid-term strategy, we need the budding "feelers" of mine to jtsisyoda to be shot down by the Junta ...............

(LOL, perhaps I get demoted, and a post by Lt Col Maniac to the embassy saying something like:

A copy of a personal memorandum from Captain Googlie to your CEO Chaunk has come to the Junta's attention. Please disregard its contents. Captain Googlie has been cashiered for his intemperate actions.

And as regards your complaints re: the profit sharing arrangement, we are prepared to reduce the status of our relationship to a Truce if that fits better with your economic model

That ought to set the proverbial cat among the pigeons !!!

G.

PS I wonder if there's any way to influence the "mood" of human factions when you click on their profiles. It'd be neat if we could somehow get Sparta's to "seething"

	21-10-2004 18:55									#16
	Put an end to popups!

quote: A copy of a personal memorandum from Captain Googlie to your CEO Chaunk has come to the Junta's attention. Please disregard its contents. Captain Googlie has been cashiered for his intemperate actions. And as regards your complaints re: the profit sharing arrangement, we are prepared to reduce the status of our relationship to a Truce if that fits better with your economic model

That'd certainly make things interesting!

	21-10-2004 19:00									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Well, we know that they are going to complete the PTS in 2144 (they'll never start an SP that they can't finish in 1 turn)

I say a priority should be infiltration of Morgan (we get Lal's - somewhat - through Zak's "back door" infiltration)
- even if we have to waste a probe team or 2 (ours and Morgan's) to get it

	21-10-2004 19:07									#18
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Or, even better, maybe it's from Kassi saying:

A copy of a personal memorandum from Captain Googlie to your CEO Chaunk has come to the Junta's attention. By order of Lieutenant-Colonel Maniac, Chairman of the Junta, please disregard its contents. You may be interested to know that Captain Googlie has been cashiered for his intemperate actions.

And as regards your complaints re: the profit sharing arrangement, I have been instructed to pass on the Junta's response. We are prepared to reduce the status of our relationship to a Truce if that fits better with your economic model

Let's do it anyway. This suggests that there's been a powers struggle within the Junta between Maniac and me, the trial balloon (deep pact suggestion) has been floated, and may spark a couple of e-mails back to me. We've told them that we have Ecol Eng, so they know we can now ratchet up the minerals production, they know we can talk to any faction so trading our techs for juicy ones is a given, they know we have the AI infiltrated ..................

Let's see if they do any grovelling

G.

	21-10-2004 19:11									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Hmm. Also consider PTS. That might make the Morganites jump so high in the power chart that we could plot the others to join forces to whomp the Morganites with us. Then strike a pact with the Gaians, wipe out the Hive, wipe out the Angels...

	21-10-2004 19:19									#20
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Well, they just start new bases at size 3, and existing bases go to size 3 provided nutrients are adequate. they don't have Gene Splicing, so have somewhat restricted growth capability.

Personally, I think they are going for the PTS too soon

G.

	21-10-2004 19:21									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Kassi:

Why don't you pop into their embassy and post this:

A copy of a personal memorandum from Captain Googlie to your CEO Chaunk has come to the Junta's attention. By order of Lieutenant-Colonel Maniac, Chairman of the Junta, please disregard its contents. You may be interested to know that Captain Googlie has been cashiered for his intemperate actions.

And as regards your complaints re: the profit sharing arrangement, I have been instructed to pass on the Junta's response. We are prepared to reduce the status of our relationship to a Truce if that fits better with your economic model

and at the same time I'll change my profile at the Aimoo boards to be Captain instead of Lt. Colonel (and I'll take off the tag line "Recording Officer, etc"

	21-10-2004 22:53									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Just to see their response, yes I'll go and post it.

	22-10-2004 00:02									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Wow, awesome!
Am I just imagining or are we kinda' tough diplomatically? I really like it, we should use our reputation.

And hey Googlie, welcome to the "send a PM and get demoted"-club :P Those pro-Gaians sure have a firm grip on the Junta.

Snd

	22-10-2004 00:03									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Geeez Guys,

I didn't know my post would have such an effect for such a sudden reversal (bewilderment).

I had posted just to bring certain things to attention in response to other posts on page 1 of this thread.

Aren't you all being a tad (<- understatement) hasty?

How is this going to project a strong central leadership from the Junta? Don't bother answering, cause the answer is an obvious; not.

Or is there's something I don't get here...?

	22-10-2004 00:31									#25
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I did consider the chance that they'll see the Junta has a rather out of whack structure, something that might eb dangerous to deal with. However, I do have tried to project an image of a faction that will adhere to its word once it's made a promise. However, we haven't made any promises yet.

I'm sure we could do a reinstatement of Googlie's rank soon. Just trying to yank their chain to see what their response is. The only thing we've seriously "pulled back" on right now has been Googlie's apparent demotion, in other matters I believe we've acted with quite a stern resolve.

In fact, to them it's looking like our thought of a pact was originally a hasty decision, which we're now pulling back, since we're so... stern and resolved. It takes time to build such an image, though, and we haven't actually done anything erratic yet, so there wasn't much to lose to begin with. Our actual integrity will probably be brought to a true test later on.

	22-10-2004 03:44									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I think it's great, and smacks of firm Junta control by Maniac and his cronies ( )

Remember that I'm a latecomer to the Spartans, having originally signed up with Morgan, so they'll see it entirely in character to have me championing their cause within the Junta, and getting slapped down by Maniac, who, with Skanky Burns and GneralTacticus were the original Spartans.

So I don;t think at all it smacks of weakness or vaccillation, but rather of some power struggles within that has suddenly left a chill running down Morgan's spine.

The next step will be to throw overboard that Morgan Observer (forfeiting the income they're whingeing about anyway)

In fact, let's do that next turn (which Maniac should play - or I can if it's here before I leave on the 27th, but Maniac should post). Send them back the 4 ec's and don't give a map of the Hunter. Then they'll think we're planning an invasion !!!

	22-10-2004 04:33									#27
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I wonder if that's taking it a bit too far? I mean, damn.

What if we want to pact with Morgan after all?

	22-10-2004 04:43									#28
	Inflate your Upload Space

As other junta members post, I'm becoming more and more convinced that the real threat to us is Morgan. He's the one that's beaten me in PBEM's I've been in as Sparta (Mongoose most recently) as they can virtually get any SP instantly and can throw up Perim Defenses and then Tachyon Fields almost in 1 turn by their ability to generate thousands of ec's during sunburst activity (or even by stopping all research for 1 turn)

I was howled down in derision when I suggested that we could out-populate them (thru growth and conquest) for a diplomatic win, and I think we all agree that if we let them grow too strong then we'll never be able to defeat them militarily

The order of our Quest for World Domination (the QWD Statetgy option) might well turn out to be:

University
Peacekeepers
Morgan
Hive
Angels
Gaians,

might it not?

	22-10-2004 04:51									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Now we're coming back full circle to what was said in the Foreign Office thread, so long ago.


Googlie:

Mongoose is an expert with Morgan. He's in the elite class of SMAC PBEM'ers, for lack of a better anology. Don't be too influenced by one game. As you said before, it was the rest of you that let him get that far any ways.

	22-10-2004 05:32									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Heh. I'm really just going with the flow, but I have to admit that Morgan's a dangerous foe. A massive machine of energy that is impossible to counter if allowed to go unchecked for too long. I've seen this in While We Are Waiting, and AFAIK AndiD isn't even one of their most gifted Morganite players (?).