15-10-2004 11:35									#31
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Continuing with the turn .....

I guess I still don't understand the precise hurry cost formula

I looked at the scout at Cratersouth (4/10ths completed, 3 mins added next turn, so 3 mins shy. Times 2.5 per min shouldn't that be 8 (rounded) Apparently not - still 2 mins short. So Cratersouth's scout won't complete next turn (but we do have 2 garrison units there for when the pop reaches 2 next turn)

So I haven't yet rushed the scout at Craterwest (tempted to do my old method of hurry price minus twice the minerals production)

But on a brighter note - Zak took Ind Auto off our hands in exchange for his Secrets of the Human Brain (so we can trance and armor crawlers for that SP !!!)

I'll do a fuller analysis tomorrow morning.

Attachment: 2142-zaktrade(2).jpg
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	15-10-2004 14:45									#32
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Wow, lots of great things happened this turn.

quote: Originally posted by Googlie We had 9 in 2140, just after we founded Vladivostok (I couldn't find the thread with the screenie, so have replicated it here) I'll do an update screenie for 2142

Thanks for the screenshot!

quote: Originally posted by Googlie Cratersouth and Fort Buster both got drones between 2140 and 2142

Indeed. Besides them it looks like Craterwest also got a drone. Due to building the CP the drone from large base size (2) disappeared, but this turn a bureaucracy-drone was added.

quote: I guess I still don't understand the precise hurry cost formula I looked at the scout at Cratersouth (4/10ths completed, 3 mins added next turn, so 3 mins shy. Times 2.5 per min shouldn't that be 8 (rounded) Apparently not - still 2 mins short. So Cratersouth's scout won't complete next turn (but we do have 2 garrison units there for when the pop reaches 2 next turn)

It's only 2.5 credits per mineral when exactly 10 minerals are still missing to complete production. Also when less than 10 minerals are accumulated, the hurry cost dramatically increases. I don't know by how many though.
Have you read my 'Treatise on Hurrying'?
Here's an extract:

quote: For units the matter is a bit more complex, as the hurry cost is not linear. Instead the energy cost per mineral depends on how many minerals are still missing for unit completion. You could of course have a look at the reference chart I provided a link to, every time you want to partially hurry a unit, but personally I find it easier to just have a calculator nearby and do the following: take the full hurry cost, divide it by the number of minerals still missing, multiply it by the number of minerals you want to hurry, and then round up to the next integer number. Voilą, you've got your hurry cost!

Some numbers I (think I) do remember:
2.00c per min if 0 mins are missing
2.25c per min if 5 mins are missing
2.50c per min if 10 mins are missing
2.75c per min if 15 mins are missing
3.00c per min if 20 mins are missing
So per 5 extra mins that are missing, the hurry cost per min rises with 0.25.
Hmm, I guess I could test out if the following would be true: per extra min missing, the hurry cost per min rises with 0.05. That could lead to a (relatively) simple formula.

	15-10-2004 18:44									#33
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I've been Ok thesae last two or 3 turns with the hurrying (I did read the treatise)m but I think that somehow I'm misapplying it with the 1-row cost units like scouts

Take Craterwest, for example:

10 mins in total, 3 accumulated, 3 next turn, and 4 short

total hurrycost is 32

base is producing 3 mind per year

my easy (overpaying for units) method would hurry at:

32 - (3 x 2) = 26

The formula suggests (with 7 mins missing):

(32 / 7 ) x 3 = 14 (rounded), which can't be right (that's essentially what I did with Cratersouth, and I ended up with 2 mins still short)

The "penalty" - or modifier - when less than 5 mins is already complete must really make a difference

Attachment: scouthurry.jpg
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	15-10-2004 19:17									#34
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Our 2 new techs gave us a little boost in the charts - we're now the leading human team and have drawn level with the PK's

Attachment: 2142 strength.jpg
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	15-10-2004 19:24									#35
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We're currently "sliding" at 60 (econ): 10 (psych) and 30 (labs), which nets us 6 ec's per turn (after our Lal loan is factored in) and means that we'll get Ecol Eng in 11 years

If we move to 30:10:60 our net income will be -1 (before any Morgan payments kick in) but we'll get Ecol Eng in 7 years

There's no guarantee that one of the AI's will get it any quicker, so what does the Junta think of resetting our sliders to labs (We are just entering another seapodpop phase that generally has good odds of yielding some credits as well)

	15-10-2004 20:09									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie (32 / 7 ) x 3 = 14 (rounded), which can't be right (that's essentially what I did with Cratersouth, and I ended up with 2 mins still short)

Aha, I think I see the problem!
It should be (32 / 7) x 4 = 19, as four minerals would need to be hurried if I understand you correctly.

quote: Our 2 new techs gave us a little boost in the charts - we're now the leading human team and have drawn level with the PK's

I'm wondering whether the Gaians will already begin to regret they annulled our no-trade agreement on IndAut.

Things seem to have turned out very well, with our early focus on DocFlex and exploration instead of crawlers.


Edit: Btw, I opened the last midturn available (this one?) and noticed Cratersouth will grow next turn without a second garrison being available. May I therefore suggest to move Shinsengumi (now in GH) to SC4 this turn?

Edit2: Ah wait, I guess that has already been done in the meantime?:

quote: Sector Cratersouth grows to 2 pops next turn, so I've moved Chiron Knights from Gythium Harbour to there for duty pending the commissioning of the Scout Patrol at Cratersouth. If we rush Cratersouth's scout (3 mins, or 8 ec's) Chiron Knights can then move on to Craterwest (grows to size 2 pop in 2 turns) next turn to perform the same duties there.

Was Chiron Knights not the elite unit in Minas Tirith btw?


In any case, I noticed Minas Tirith currently isn't supporting any units. So how about rehoming that rover there to Minas Tirith? That frees up a support slot back at Sparta Command. To fill that, we could switch the scout patrols in SC1 and SC2. The SC1 scout moves to SC2, and the SC2 scout moves to SC1 and is rehomed to that base. The result of all this would be SC2 producing an extra mineral, and thus finishing the scout patrol (hoplite?) currently under production one year earlier.

	15-10-2004 20:56									#37
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Just realized something else. Now we have Secrets of the Human Brain, how about switching production from scout patrols to trance scouts?

	15-10-2004 22:50									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Just realized something else. Now we have Secrets of the Human Brain, how about switching production from scout patrols to trance scouts?

That was going to be my next suggestion upon re-opening the turn (I'm just back from an eye exam, and things are a bit blurry what with the eyedrops I have in - to dilate the pupils, I guess. Oh, and I had a full retinal scan as well - ever so neat. The Doctor explained everything that was appearing on the screen. Talk about modern technology (invented by a Scotsman, too !!)

	15-10-2004 23:12									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Maniac Was Chiron Knights not the elite unit in Minas Tirith btw?

I think you're right (I kinda lost track of them when I was off for the five weeks)I'll be glad when we can syntharmor one andf name it, then trance another and give that a different name (and may impact a third - although all will eventually be impact)

	15-10-2004 23:31									#40
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I'll execute these orders and then hang a fresh midturn save here

But what is the hurry cost for Craterwest's scout?

3 mins for the base, 3 mins already banked, and the asking hurry cost is 32

(My old formula is 32 - (3 x 2) or, in other words, 26

The in-thread formula seems to be :

32/7 * 4 (rounded) = 19

Can that be right?

	15-10-2004 23:38									#41
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Follow-up question re Cratersouth

Right now , when 2143 opens, it'll be 2 mins short of completing the hoplite there.

But

next turn the pop grows to 2, and the second worker will be allocated by the AI (presumably) to the farmed rolling & rainy tile between the 2 crater bases, which produces 2 minerals

Will that mean that the hoplite completes next turn? (in other words, is the build order executed before the pop count is reviewed? or vice versa?)

	15-10-2004 23:41									#42
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No. It won't.

Food (growth, starvation) are first.
Then it's production (that's why you can build a unit/facility and not riot)
Next is energy/labs.
The extra pop, although it appears, does not have any effect on production until the next turn.

Edit: inserted "on production "

	15-10-2004 23:46									#43
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Latest save (with just the one rush-build remaining)

We have 189 ec's in the kitty, but owe the Gaians 75 which will be taken from the reserves when we open the next turn

Attachment: acdg-3 - sparta, 2142-endturn.zip
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Last edited by Googlie on 15-10-2004 at 23:54

	15-10-2004 23:47									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie 32/7 * 4 (rounded) = 19 Can that be right?

Yep.

quote: Food (growth, starvation) are first. Then it's production (that's why you can build a unit/facility and not riot)

Isn't it the other way around?
First production, then growth, and that's why you can build a unit/facility and not riot?

	15-10-2004 23:52									#45
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Nope, it ain't. And I know it sounds confusing. But that's why you'll still starve if you build a facility that will help you in generating more nutrients (recycling tanks, kelp farm thing that I never build, treefarm, etc.).


You grow/starve first. Then production. Then enrgy/labs. Then the game checks for riots.
(Sorry, I'm tpying fast)

	15-10-2004 23:56									#46
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I see. I didn't know that, thanks.

	16-10-2004 00:01									#47
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so 2 booboos this turn

I screwed up the Craterwest rush build resulting in the Hoplite there being a year late in finishing his training

The probe team en-route from Olympus to Rio Grande (via Fort Buster) slipped off the road down the crater rim at the end of their 6-tile journey (I was using the numeric keypad arrows and got a diagonal wrong. I hate the lsft mouse button click and hold, as I've seen units stall all too frequently that way)

But the successes outweigh the booboos - 2 new techs, a Treaty with Lal, some upgraded units, etc etc

	16-10-2004 00:50									#48
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OK - Hoplite rushed for 19 ec's ( ), checked all diplo windows:

Treaty pre-accepted for Morgan
75 ec's pre-accepted to the Gaians for the Angels' commlink

(and this is the only outstanding item - whether we want to offer SoTHB to them in lieu of paying the 50 ec's for Ind Auto's embargo release)

	16-10-2004 01:47									#49
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So - 2142 comes to an end, it as an eventful year (turn posted)

(I checked again in the Embassy - Illuminatus had posted his Lal query after I had said that we'd add the 50 ec's to the 25 and pre-accept it, so i fugured that the "gifting" of a tech in lieu was dead from both sides - not that they ever know that we'd been considering it, of course)

Now to plan for 2143, and the contact with the Angels

	18-10-2004 06:14									#50
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That's also why you can still make a breakthrough, even though your projected labs won't bring you there. Since enrgy and labs happen after production, a net node or reasearch hospital will add 50% of that bases labs. It's kinda tricky, but you can actually figure where to rush buy individual facilities to accomplish this while taking into consideration where the actual (which base) this will occur duriing the pre-turn cycle.