09-10-2004 05:41									#1
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quote: Members of the High Council, I wish to inquire officially if the Gaian Union is prepared to trade the Spartan comlink. With how current possessions lay, this probably would need a little addition for the price the Data Angels can pay at this moment. May I ask to to bring this issue to the attention of the whole council? Sincerely, IT GeoModder

This was just posted on the Eventis boards by Geomodder. My immediate reaction is no. If possible though, and the Spartans aren't willing to trade, trade the com to Data to Sparta at the same time as we trade the Spartan com to the Angels. That way, we at least get a little profit out of it, although this will seriously diminish our position. So?

	09-10-2004 11:52									#2
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How did the Angels find out about our contact with the Spartans, anyway?

	09-10-2004 12:14									#3
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My thought exactly. (Maniac and GeoModder are brothers - but if they directly told one another I would report it to Drogue as intentional breach of rules and demand severe punishment).

	09-10-2004 12:16									#4
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You should have kept silent Ouro, perhaps they were bluffing. EDIT: On closer examination, no. There aren't any Spartan members with information in profile, and Angels exactly know we have it - they created a special thread about it and didn't even question if it existed. This cannot be a lucky guess. Interesting fact is that Spartans repeated their case about the commlink - it is obvious that someone (*cough, cough* Maniac) 'accidentaly' hinted Angels (*cough*, cough* GeoModder)- it can't be a lucky try - Angels exactly knew we ahve the commlink - they cannot simply guess it. It is obvious that Spartans blatantly told Angels in order to exert diplomatic pressure on us. I will compose a PM to Drogue, requesting halt of the ACDG, until full details are determined, offendors expelled from both teames, and we receive retribution.

Last edited by Illuminatus on 09-10-2004 at 12:31

	09-10-2004 13:11									#5
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This is what I sent to Drogue:

quote: I am sorry Drogue, but I have reason to believe that Spartans have done a serious breach of rules in order to exert pressure on us. I require freezing ACDG, investigation of act, and then expulsion of all responsible parties from both teams + amendments to Gaian team. The full story - a turn ago, our MW in Hive teritory was toatlly unexpectedly found by a Spartan rover - we still do not know how is appeared htere except suspicions that it arrived there assisted by teleportation in some measure. Since due to a mistake of two of our members, BinTravkin and Ouro, the secret about contact with Angels was out, and we presumed that all faction members seen ti, therfore knowing we have contact with Angels. We did not anger on them, but we decided to keep contact with Spartans a secret. We started negotiation about tech exchange with Spartans which was almost accepted but rejected due to excessive demands - while we disucssed how to act next- since Spartan rules were designed to prevent tech brockerage with Angels (with whom they know we have contact) However, extensive measures were taken to assure Angels do not learn we have contact with Spartans - we even formulated messages tfor Spartans to confuse relative positions of us and Angels in order to explore the wrong part of the world if they seek to find Angel on their own. We even notified them of our vendetta with Hive, in order to cover up for techs we hoped to receive from Spartans. But now, Angels suddenly know we have the Spartan commlink. Link Observe the post - they are official inquiring what to trade for Spartan commlink. They are not even asking if we have it, they know it. I responded that we don't have the Spartan commlink in order to see if they will admit they received information that we have Spartan commlink. However this are the facts - 1) They do not ask if we have the commlink, they know it. 2) They could not simply 'guess' we met them, out of nowhere, and then go and bluff. Chances for that to happen almost impossible. Spartans, repeat their request for trafe within same timeframe Sparta asks yet again for Angel commlink - too suspicious. It is obvious, that one or more of Spartan members intentionally 'slipped' information about this to Angels, in order to exert diplomatic pressure on us and remove all diplomatic advantage we had. This is a clear and intentional offense and must be punished severly. I suspect Maniac and GeoModder (since they are brothers). Spartans obviously hinted contact with us either via email, chat or comemnt in some thread. If they only hinted, it was clearly with intention to inform other, unmet team in order to remove any advantage we had. There are too many coincedences to believe this is a lucky guess by Angels, and as intelligent man you must clearly see that they did not realise it simply because Spartans and Gaians prolonged their turns and then act compeltely sure about this. Morover, this happens exactly when Spartans are pressing for commlink information and trying to remove any advantage in trading. This is not a coincedence, it is a clear and intentional offense. If they did the only solution is to expell offender(s) for disclosing information, GeoModder for receiving and acting on information received illegally, and impose a 30 year ban on all exchange of information between Angels and Spartans regardles if they aquire the commlink or not.

	09-10-2004 13:12									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I also propose we freeze this demogame until all details of this have been revealed.

	09-10-2004 13:25									#7
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Ah yes, Drogue explained it to me. They looked at Spartan message box and noticed they could not offer them our frequency any more. I guess we should have thought of this ridiculous exploit when we are deciding rules for the demogame. Question is how to respond to this? I would reject proposal - useless tech like Applied physics is of no use to us.

Last edited by Illuminatus on 09-10-2004 at 17:49

	09-10-2004 23:16									#8
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Oh well, this bug diminishes how much fun we can have with deception, but we'll just have to run with it. I used it against Morgan, and discovered that although he has not contacted the Data Angels or the Spartans, he has met the Hive. He also still has every tech we have.

I suppose we'll have to honestly decline the offers for commlink exchange, suggesting that we don't appreciate nosy spies (especially from the Angels). We can work in roleplaying to soften the rejection while having fun with them. It's not good if we've outright lied to them, however.

	09-10-2004 23:22									#9
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I altered the psot later to hide this. However GeoModder offered a new trade: commlink and 20 credits for Progenitor Psych

	18-10-2004 17:38									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Illuminatus Ah yes, Drogue explained it to me. They looked at Spartan message box and noticed they could not offer them our frequency any more. I guess we should have thought of this ridiculous exploit when we are deciding rules for the demogame. Question is how to respond to this? I would reject proposal - useless tech like Applied physics is of no use to us.

How does this work?

	18-10-2004 18:38									#11
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Human opponents show up on the F12 menu as if we had their commlinks, except for the lack of a diplomatic status. We could, in principle, make deals this way, but that's forbidden. It's not forbidden to offer things in a parallel turn, to check what techs/commlinks you have in common with your opponents.

	18-10-2004 20:41									#12
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I see! So if a group sees that someone DOES have a diplomatic state relating to another faction, then they know there is contact?

Does this only happen for human players?

	18-10-2004 20:42									#13
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I still think we should ahve thought of this before, since it is a completely overpowered exploit. We can't hide little about our tech and diplo plan.

	18-10-2004 21:38									#14
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You can't see other factions' diplomatic statuses without infiltration. You can, however, offer them your commlinks. Any commlinks you can't offer indicate contact. This is how the Angels knew immediately when we met the Spartans, which I find rather annoying. On the other hand, Yang is so central that with schmoozing, he could be persuaded to give up commlinks. Alternatively, if he gets them all (and he's only missing Lal's), he would probably call for elections.

	18-10-2004 21:51									#15
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Spartans could trade Yang Lal's frequency, thus enabling planetary council, but currently they are more interested at prospect of middleman between AIs and humans.

	19-10-2004 12:17									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Chaos Theory You can't see other factions' diplomatic statuses without infiltration. You can, however, offer them your commlinks. Any commlinks you can't offer indicate contact. This is how the Angels knew immediately when we met the Spartans, which I find rather annoying. On the other hand, Yang is so central that with schmoozing, he could be persuaded to give up commlinks. Alternatively, if he gets them all (and he's only missing Lal's), he would probably call for elections.

Wait.... doesn't this mean that the Angels would have had to have Sparta's comms already? If that was the case, how were we still able to act as middleman?

	19-10-2004 14:05									#17
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quote: You can't see other factions' diplomatic statuses without infiltration. You can, however, offer them your commlinks. Any commlinks you can't offer indicate contact. This is how the Angels knew immediately when we met the Spartans, which I find rather annoying. On the other hand, Yang is so central that with schmoozing, he could be persuaded to give up commlinks. Alternatively, if he gets them all (and he's only missing Lal's), he would probably call for elections.

This text is quite weird!

Angels can't know if we have or not the Spartan commlink if they don't have it themselves, so it's WRONG!

I think they rather assumed that!

	19-10-2004 17:23									#18
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No, no, they opened Spartan message box and tried to offer them our frequency - they couldn't do it so they realised we've met.

	22-10-2004 12:52									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Illuminatus No, no, they opened Spartan message box and tried to offer them our frequency - they couldn't do it so they realised we've met.

So.... they have each others' frequencies already then?

	22-10-2004 13:44									#20
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quote: So.... they have each others' frequencies already then?

That's the weird thing about ACDG - no one bothers to disable the human-human commlink from the very start at "alphax.txt"

	22-10-2004 16:59									#21
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So they had each other's comms already, hence they could find out that we had them. But in that case why are they asking for the comms???

* MrWhereItsAt is now REALLY confused

	22-10-2004 18:42									#22
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No, what happened is that each had our commlink, but had the ability to contact any human. Most uses of this contact-without-commlink are forbidden, but for some reason offering things for trade in a copy of the official turn (that is, something that's never sent on) is fine. Therefore, the Angels opened contact with the Spartans, and tried to offer them our commlink. They couldn't, so the Spartans must have already had our commlink.

	22-10-2004 20:10									#23
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AH MWIA, I will explain you the whole mechanism on MIRC next time.