11-10-2004 04:05									#1
	A true 'Test of Time'? Tired of ads?

Had this thought, know it probably will be trounced.

Something that seems to make Civ boring or repetitive, especially in the later stages of the game, when it's easy to guess a few centuries in advance who is going to win, is the lack of political turmoil and instability.

Why don't factions form, empire shatters, ministers coup you government? I know it has been suggested before, but not AFAIK to its absolute possible extent.

Make Civ the ultimate Test of Time. What if it didn't really matter if your civilization was wiped out? What if the game went on? What if the point of the game would be about being eradicated as seldom as possible? When you're defeated, you lose 25% or something of your points, then you use the remaining ones to bid on another nation whose destiny you will preside over.

Forget about unfair AI advantages. The ultimate Civ4 expert will be the one who truly manages to build an empire spawning 6 millenia.

This idea could have many consequences: bring much needed action to the game, don't be affraid to really pose a challenge to the player, a perpetual fight for survival where domestic stability is a success. What about a world already filled with hundreds of nation states right at the beginning?

Does that sound good, bad or ugly?

	11-10-2004 17:57									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Sounds good. Unfortunately it would be a really frustrating experience. I wouldn't like to play a game where for example upon contact with a far away civilisation 4/5 of my population gets wiped out by smallpox or plague. This is realistic but it would suck to be on the loosing side. The other problem would be that it would be extremely hard to do the scoring.

	11-10-2004 20:15									#3
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Yeah, I guess this is much more of a fantasm than a true idea.

	11-10-2004 21:08									#4
	Tired of ads?

It sounds real good, but it will never be workable I'm afraid...

	11-10-2004 22:41									#5
	Re: A true 'Test of Time'? Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris Had this thought, know it probably will be trounced. When you're defeated, you lose 25% or something of your points, then you use the remaining ones to bid on another nation whose destiny you will preside over. Does that sound good, bad or ugly?

Dont see why this aspect could not work.

Maybe cross post this in paradigm shift forum.

	15-10-2004 02:07									#6
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

This is infact is one of the main complaints I've heard on this forum (in one way or another). That fact that you can predict who's gonna win before the game has even reached the half-way mark. 99% of my games are over by this point.

The game needs these complexities in order to STAY fun. The best times to play Civ3 or at the very early stages after that it just seems like a never ending cycle of Civilizations going to war with me before I eventually kill them off (and I'm not even a warmonger). Mind you I'm usually like playing on HUGE maps because I like the idea of the Earth/Map being a very large object, thus games take longer.

The REXing needs to be fixed. I don't mind it but I think the programing should be different and make it more difficult to expand your civ in the early stages of the game. And then make it more easy and then make it more difficult. Which could follow the trends of colonialism.

I could seriously right about this in more depth and more detail but I don't want to bore people to death.

	15-10-2004 02:46									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I definitely think that civ3 tends to be way too predictable. As ihuc19 said, most games are basically over by the midpoint.

I think a simple solution would be to have events that would occur either at random times or based on a tech or other event that would force the player to deal with those events.

For example, when you discover "industrializtion" there would be a chance that you would get labor riots for x turns.

If you declare war against an enemy that you just made peace with, there could be a chance of a city revolting and declaring independance.

A resource could dry up.

Another event could be "one of your spies was working for the enemy and has given them nuclear tech".

It seems to me that these kinds of events would make the game more interesting and less predictable.

	15-10-2004 03:46									#8
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I just now came to the point where I really think the designers need to take everyone seriously about the need for complexity and what is referred to as unfun. I always hoped the game would be complex in some ways like having many options for civs, but now I accept the need for what is referred to as unfun.

	15-10-2004 05:41									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Diplomat, I'm not sure that random events is the way you go. Random risks=good, but a 'responsible' system where risks are created by your own actions seems more in line with what some people have been asking for (i.e. more complexity/realism in social simulation).

On the idea I guess we agree.

	15-10-2004 05:43									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

For instance, and I'm not saying that it should be in the game, it's just an example, I could say yes to the risk of worker riots, but only if your civilization is not rich or developed enough, something that could be measured with your level of infrastructure and number of trade/shields per citizen point.

	16-10-2004 04:50									#11
	Got spare money?

Keeping a large empire together should be a major uphill fight.

	16-10-2004 08:42									#12
	Suffering from ads?

I've always been in favor of bringing back civil wars.

	17-10-2004 22:54									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Exactly, having a large empire should be an uphill battle. Look at Rome for instance, being constantly challenged at every border, but at the time their superior road network was something no other civilization could match. But when Rome stretched too far the empire began to crumble.

Mind you this is in early history, where most large empires arose from (Persia, Mongolia, Rome, etc.) but all of these empire are nothing but fart I forgot about. It seemed easy enough to build large empires in the old days, but harder to keep it. In the game it easy enough (for the AI) to build and not get penalized later (especially in the large maps).

What I really want in my game is an AI that doesn't cheat to get ahead but is still smart enough not to build in the freakin desert just for land area. Nothing bothers me more than having to spend hours apon hours taking over these WORTHLESS cities.

Still I play on HUGE maps, because as I said before I like them, they are more realistic. Right now I'm building a 360x360 map of the Old World and it is going to awesome. If only I could find a way to stop the computer from having 30+ cities, under Emperor, by the 10 AD mark, then I think we could have something.

Under my ideal game, you should be able to build your empire in a given space, 10-15 cities tops, make it harder to build cities outside a given perimeter from Capital, especially early in the game.

I mean really give a bonus to cities connected to a capital, and make it incrediably difficult for cities not connected to the capital to build settlers. Infact cities not connected to a capital, outside of Seafaring nations (who should have Harbors instead), shouldn't be able to build settlers....I like that rule, because otherwise the AI is just rediculous (spell check).

The most superior empires where infact the Merchant class empires (England, Netherlands, Venice) and only England was able to continue to growth with colonization at it's helm, until it eventually stopped.

As I said before I can talk about my qualms with the game for hours. But I love the game, because some day I hope it will be everything I think it should be.

I'm all for getting rid of the UNFUN stuff (like Corruption, whatever), but I'm all for little things that can make the game a challenge without you having the feeling like someone is holding you down. Like my road thing it should work. Or the perimeter thing. Slow movement rates outside a given capital perimter, increase them within.

I mean it makes since right, if the Mongols are invading my early China empire I should be able to dispatch my troops faster than invading northern hordes along my Gobi steppes. I like that! That's fun. Increase +3 movement to somewhere between (4-6). I don't know which one would be better since I haven't tested it yet.

More complaints and praises to come.

	18-10-2004 14:14									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by ihuc19 Mind you this is in early history, where most large empires arose from (Persia, Mongolia, Rome, etc.) but all of these empire are nothing but fart I forgot about. It seemed easy enough to build large empires in the old days, but harder to keep it. In the game it easy enough (for the AI) to build and not get penalized later (especially in the large maps). AMEN BROTHER What I really want in my game is an AI that doesn't cheat to get ahead but is still smart enough not to build in the freakin desert just for land area. Nothing bothers me more than having to spend hours apon hours taking over these WORTHLESS cities. MY SECOND AMEN BROTHER Under my ideal game, you should be able to build your empire in a given space, 10-15 cities tops, make it harder to build cities outside a given perimeter from Capital, especially early in the game. I mean really give a bonus to cities connected to a capital, and make it incrediably difficult for cities not connected to the capital to build settlers. Infact cities not connected to a capital, outside of Seafaring nations (who should have Harbors instead), shouldn't be able to build settlers....I like that rule, because otherwise the AI is just rediculous (spell check). The most superior empires where infact the Merchant class empires (England, Netherlands, Venice) and only England was able to continue to growth with colonization at it's helm, until it eventually stopped. I'm all for getting rid of the UNFUN stuff (like Corruption, whatever), but I'm all for little things that can make the game a challenge without you having the feeling like someone is holding you down. Like my road thing it should work. Or the perimeter thing. Slow movement rates outside a given capital perimter, increase them within. I mean it makes since right, if the Mongols are invading my early China empire I should be able to dispatch my troops faster than invading northern hordes along my Gobi steppes. I like that! That's fun. Increase +3 movement to somewhere between (4-6). I don't know which one would be better since I haven't tested it yet. More complaints and praises to come.

AMEN BROTHER , WHEN IS THE NEXT SERMON

	20-10-2004 01:55									#15
	Tired of ads?

I've just recently tried a new simulation with my Civ3 game and editor. And I have been able to stop (maintain within reasonable levels) the REXing. #1- can't build in the desert, tundra, jungles, and obviously mountains. #2- I plant a Wine luxury in every civs starting location, and no where else on the map. Then I made Settlers only available through a Wine source. Thus I was able to make it so only the capital can make settlers in the beginning, unless a city had a connection to the capital, works pretty well.

This also emphasizes worker production, protecting your capital, and since the Wine luxury only boosts food by 1 and trade 1, you aren't hurting yourself by settling there nor really gaining an advantage, plus everyone likes one Happier citizens in the beginning of the game.

	20-10-2004 15:19									#16
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Hey ihuc19,

Will you try to make that a mod for AU? (apolyton university)

I think that would change things nicely.

	21-10-2004 04:40									#17
	Increase Your PM Length

I'm not a mod maker, as far as I know, and I'm not really sure if I'd know how to make one and then make it available, but I'll tell you what I'll do.

As I said before in this thread, I'm INTO map making, and right now I am making a 360x360 (Old World-No North or South America) map with these rules included. I've also included the 1.17 mod rules into it as well.

Which basically includes me reading the readme.txt and adjusting it to my map in the editor.

As you can see I'm also a new member here and I'm not exactly sure what the changes were from C3C to C3Cv22 (which I own now) nor am I sure what the changes are from that version to the 1.17 mod. So I kind of got the feeling as if I was adding more than I should to some units (especially improvements).

When the readme says for example "I've added +1 attack to Riflemen" I do just that exact same thing. I kind wish it was explained a little better like for instance "I've added +1 attack to Riflemen from 5 to 6."

Only a couple times does the readme ever say this. Just a complaint.

Anyway back to what I was saying, this map will be AWESOME, I'm no slouch and I'm self proclaimed perfectionist who does the job right. I make my maps realistic and most important playable (ex: England isn't a sliver). Hand made and really really ****ing good. But this also means it takes me forever to make them and right now I've been working on this map for over a month. Probably because I'm also a busy college student, nonetheless.

I say this because I already have a 240x180 (WORLD) map that I made from stratch, the only problem was I wasn't able to included South America in it for the level of detail I was looking for on the other continents. So I never released it. But still very detailed and an exceptional map. I'm just comparing them to the maps I've seen on here, where people copy other map projections and then release them as is.

Though I've heard that this map is pretty good. Don't know never downloaded it. But I will after I'm done with mine.
http://www.apolyton.net/forums/show...threadid=108232

So I'm fairly sure I'll be able to release my map fairly soon, with all these rules included. Also since my map is so big and the cities are very dependent on the road connections I've increased the road movement from 3 to 6 and on top of all the increases the 1.17 mod gave to ships I've added +1 movement to them as well.

Along with the Wine and Terrain hindrances testing fairly well against the AI I show them reducing their REXing by approximately 25% in IDEAL conditions.

My map will not have IDEAL conditions. Every starting position is on a river in the beginning but aside from that I'm making my terrain very hostile in the fact that you probably won't find huge open bonus grasslands as far as the eye can see. Lots of forests (like how the Earth used to be when no cities were on it) especially in Europe, Africa, China, and Siberia, and just enough open spaces in order for you to build a decently side empire from the get go. The map (360x360) is large enough that you can have an empire of 10+ cities in England and Ireland alone.

Well see though, I'm still trying to find a way to reduce the AI's REXing some more, without disrupting gameplay so I might come up something else as well before I release it. Anyway I hope it turns out good.

	21-10-2004 10:43									#18
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thanks for the tip, link and update