11-10-2004 07:19									#1
	logistics Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Logistics, the supply of armies, is virtualy absent in Civ2. Modern armies require a constant supply of food, ammunition and petrol. Ancient armies lived off the land, but this required operating where there was enough food and water. A line of communications was still needed for reinforcements and orders back and forth.

This vital aspect of warfare has almost no representation in the Civ2 game engine. I was wondering if anyone has any good ideas about how it can be factored into a scenario?

	11-10-2004 07:55									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

1) A player must continue to attack fuel dumps to gain cash to create units to continue attacking.

2) Air units as ammunition.

3) Event created sappers that attack a minimal amount of rail lines.

4) Helicopter units - need to rest (refuel) or be handicapped in a battle. Have airbases or cities depict fuel dumps, supply depots.

5) Specialized terrain tiles that change around different unit producing cities through events, depicting seasons, droughts, good planting seasons. This might be a neat idea for an Egyptian empire scenario. Think of the game Pharoah.

6) Island game - players start out with cities in high food terrain tiles with no surrounding shield producing tiles. The player will have to start colonies on other islands with low food, high shield terrain tiles. Food caravans would have to be run back and forth to supplant colonies. Turns the scenario into a "break the other guys industry/agriculture link" to win.

7) An allies versus allies game where two civs, with wildly different unit capabilities have to work together to win a war. One civ has slow moving but high attack units. The other has fast moving cheap units.

Damn Tech, I don't want to give up all my future scenario secrets.

Those are a few I can think of that might represent logistics.

	11-10-2004 11:19									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks! It's my future scenarios I'm worried about!

I'm thinking of a 2-map ToT solution. On a second map are rail lines, matching those on the main map, except they're ocean. Outside each city along the line is a transporter (named railway station). Train units (ships) move, carrying units and ammunition (as per your suggestion). Upon reaching their destination, they use the railway station to move to the main map.

You could use events to block the rail line on the 2nd map if specific cities along the line on the main map were captured. Recapture would unblock the line. A bit cumbersome, I think, but it might work.

	11-10-2004 12:49									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by techumseh I'm thinking of a 2-map ToT solution. On a second map are rail lines, matching those on the main map, except they're ocean. Outside each city along the line is a transporter (named railway station). Train units (ships) move, carrying units and ammunition (as per your suggestion). Upon reaching their destination, they use the railway station to move to the main map.

I've tried something rather similar before. It might work out reasonably well for multiplayer games but I've never managed to get an AI to work with such a system.
They do seem to jump to the second map without a problem but they just don't seem to grasp the fundamental point of movement on the second map benefitting the situation on the first somehow ...

	11-10-2004 16:14									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

If the scenario is about conquest and with a lot of units, I have a nice idea myself. You need a strained economy, which will eventually sell out production supporting improvements, i.e. factories, mfg plants, power plants etc, when you run out of gold. Certain wonders can also be obsoleted during the scenario to keep the pressure on the economy.

Then it becomes important to perform conquests in order to earn the trade paying for these improvements. Otherwise you will lose the troops deployed in the field.

	11-10-2004 17:58									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

You may want to take a look at Capt Nemo's Second Front scen, where units homed to a city require that the city has gasoline in order for the units to function. IIRC, gasoline convoys (freights) could be built.

From a player's perspective, some form of logistics might be fine as long as it doesn't demand too much time each turn.

Also, to show how differently people think about the same subject, I've always considered organizing and optimizing city food and production, setting up the transport system (roads, RR, transports,airports) and getting the right units to the right place at the right time as very much an exercise in logistics.

	11-10-2004 21:00									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by AGRICOLA You may want to take a look at Capt Nemo's Second Front scen, where units homed to a city require that the city has gasoline in order for the units to function. IIRC, gasoline convoys (freights) could be built. From a player's perspective, some form of logistics might be fine as long as it doesn't demand too much time each turn. Also, to show how differently people think about the same subject, I've always considered organizing and optimizing city food and production, setting up the transport system (roads, RR, transports,airports) and getting the right units to the right place at the right time as very much an exercise in logistics.

How did Nemo create food caravans? One frustration for me is that event-created freight units are always 'hides'. Does anyone know how to modify this?

I agree that all those things count as logistics. I guess it's too broad a term. I should have just said 'supply'.

	13-10-2004 08:25									#8
	Civ2 Resupplied Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I've developed a new technique for ToT supply. Here's how it works:

Each unit has a corresponding unsupplied unit. The pre-req for one is the obsolete tech for the other, and vice-versa. The protagonist has the Leonardo's Workshop wonder. An events trigger intended to put that unit out of supply, results in two action events. One gives the pre-req for the out-of-supply unit, the other takes the obsolete tech. When the unit is put back into supply, a pair of events simply reverses the process. I've tested it and it can be used multiple times.

Here's the example I've tested:

Rules for a T-34/85, and the unsupplied version, T-34/85(U), with a movement of 0:

T-34/85, U2, 0, 4.,0, 10a,8d, 2h,1f, 9,0, 0, U1, 000000000000000
T-34/85(U), U1, 0, 0.,0, 10a,8d, 2h,1f, 9,0, 0, U2, 000000000000000

Here are the events that put this unit out-of-supply:

@IF
TURN
turn=6
@THEN
GiveTechnology
technology=91
receiver=Russians
TEXT
Out of Gas!
ENDTEXT
@ENDIF

@IF
TURN
turn=6
@THEN
TakeTechnology
whom=Russians
technology=90
@ENDIF


And these events get it moving again:

@IF
TURN
turn=8
@THEN
GiveTechnology
technology=90
receiver=Russians
TEXT
Refueled!
ENDTEXT
@ENDIF

@IF
TURN
turn=8
@THEN
TakeTechnology
whom=Russians
technology=91
@ENDIF

The advantages are that it's quite simple and works well. You can adjust the specs for unsupplied units as you wish - eg. tanks may be completely unable to move, unsupplied infantry may simply attack at half strength, and so on. No changing bat files is needed, it's automatic.

Disadvantages are that ALL units of a particular type are affected, regardless of their individual situation, and event triggers must be designed in advance to place units in and out of supply. Also, only one nation can use it, since it requires Leo's Workshop.

	14-10-2004 09:12									#9
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

You'd need separate tech combo's for each unit able to be obsoleted too, unless you'd want them all out-of-supply with the same event ...

OTOH of course, that might not be so much of a problem given that you'd be reducing the number of types of available units anyway in using an additional slot for each unsupplied unit.

You could even implement more than one level of supply using two obsolete techs - the first one to indicate low-supply - ie: reduced attack rating & movement, and a second to reduce both further (and perhaps the defense rating as well) for completely unsupplied units.
Then, to restore to full functionality take the low-supply tech away and use the "collapse tech tree" option.

I'm not sure whether multiple Leo's workshops could be hex-editted in to various different civ's but it probably wouldn't be a good option, AI-wise anyway, unless the AI isn't supposed to be able to restore supply.
I couldn't see an AI figuring out how to do it very easily but it'd be an intriguing twist in an MP game ...

	14-10-2004 11:22									#10
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by ravagon I'm not sure whether multiple Leo's workshops could be hex-editted in to various different civ's

A wonder is assigned the number of the city in which it is built so that you cannot have it in more than one city at any time.

	15-10-2004 04:25									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, that answers that question, which had occurred to me as well. Too bad.

Leo's Workshop changes units which have the same role number. So you can distinguish units by changing their role. Eg: T-34/85 - 0 (attack), Guards Infantry - 1 (defend), JS-II - 2 (naval superiority), SU-100 -3 (air superiority). All 4 could have the same pre-req and obsolete techs; Leo's will keep them straight.