19-10-2004 00:39									#31
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Well. I've been typing and typing, then realized that I was just repeating some things that have already been said by each one of us in further posts here, or in other threads.

So I would recomend that we re-read the posts of the last few days (to about the 14th October). It will save me commenting from the above post, all the way to my next post, concerning the inbetween posts in this thread.

I'll then fast forward my next comments to my following post...

Edit: made easier to unerstand (as I had a hard time when I read it myself).

Last edited by KrysiasKrusader on 19-10-2004 at 03:09

	19-10-2004 01:00									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'd be inclined to think of it more as "what's on our critical path" and would answer: The Citizen's Defense Force SP - I see that as absolutely critical. We can sustain all sorts of field casualties, but we need a secure base, with - always - best armor trance, then trance AAA defenders behind that 100% defence bonus perimeter

I don't recall ever being in a game where this was critical, myself. Nice to have, yes. But critical, no. Best reason I can figure, is that when I'm in a war, I prefer to take the battle to the enemy. I rarely strike before I'm ready, so have little need (and thus save time) but not having to concern myself with defence. "The best defence strategy, is an overwhelming offensive strategy". But that's just my experience.

quote: Doctrine Air Power - with the prohibition agaisnt choppers attacking bases (and the nonbuild of the Cloudbase Academy), conventional airforces are going to be gamewinners

Agreed.

quote: The Maritime Control Center SP - we need a navy to transport our forces and project our power, and naval yards in every coastal base, the +2 morale for naval units, and the 2 extra movement points confer a huge advantage

Here again, my own experience differs. Drop troops are what breaks things wide open for me. Raising land bridges to close by continents is more effective than chancing transports. Naval units are obsoleted when a few aircraft can protect an entire coastline. Just those three things project power better, in my opinion. Much more than having (pretty well useless) naval units moving a couple squares more.

quote: Fusion Power - even our elite troops will be cannon fodder if we're fighting with fission against a faction with fusion

Agreed.

quote: Sentient Resonance - I'd rather have this tech than a combo of Advanced Spaceflight (level 13 Shard weapons) and Matter Compression (level-8 Neutronium Armor). it gives a level 12 weapon and a level 8 armor, but with a +25% bonus - on both sides - in psi combat. One big advantage of the other 2 techs, though, is that they are the prereqs to Super Tensile Solids, which give hab Domes (grow beyond size 14) but, more importantly, the Space Elevator SP, the ultimate in projection of power

Yeah... Okay.
But I also like sky hydroponic labs. The first sat gives you a complete world map (including teraaforming).
Only played in one game where hab domes where used (we weren't allowed to attack any other human faction for the entire game). Besides that, they're over before you get there.

quote: But I don't see the game getting much past the level-10 techs (of which Super Tensile solids is one)

I don't see it getting there at all.
Tell me somebody; when (which tech levels) did the other demo games end?

quote: And once a critical path is defined, then the pieces fall into place thus, gigalots of crawlers are essential (for SP building, prototyping, mineral whoring, ect etc); formers are essential (for the terain that the crawlers will be working), etc

Yes. Agreed. Affirmative.

	19-10-2004 01:08									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Zeiter ... I would also add the Command Nexus and the Cyborg Factory to that list of SPs that we might want to snag. ...

Yea. Agreed.

I'll also add The Nano Factory (if it goes that far).

Other "nice to have" for Sparta:

- The Aescetic Virtues
- The Longevity Vaccine
- The Pholus Mutagen

	19-10-2004 02:05									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'm thinking along somewhat similar lines, too, but coming from a different direction ... (how many Angels can dance on a gunbarrel anyway?), ...

(I dunno. How many?)

I can only remember playing against a human controlled Data Angel faction once. They drowned in a 'Planet Rising', and those that didn't...; Got my novelty fusion planet busters.

quote: We want the CDF (to secure our rear), the MCC (to project our power) and the Neural Amplifier (for the inevitable combat against the Gaians wormy army). And we wouldn't mind having the Cyborg Factory either, for the Bioenhancement Centers that gives to each base. Maybe even the PEG for us would make sense.

I'm not going to argue this. But how about looking at it like this...

We want some non-agression pacts (to secure our rear and/or flanks), a good road network along our interior lines, coupled with access to adjoining continents for now, and drop capability in the futur (to project our power), and some 2e-1-2's (for the inevitable combat against the Gaians wormy army). And we definitly want the Cyborg Factory, for the Bioenhancement Centers that gives to each base. Maybe even the PEG for us would make sense.

I think that this would be more realistic with regards to how we've been developing our faction so far.

Cons concerning the PEG: It is along the Progenitor path. Morgan would fight tooth and nail for it.

quote: The trouble with the "no co-operative victory" set up is that we'd have to agree to part company at a time when we were equally strong - them economically and scientifically and we militarily. They'll know that we will try to take them out, and it will be galling for us to have helped strengthen them to the point where they might be able to resist us doing just that. Where that point is I don't know - level 8 or 9 techs maybe (Advanced Spaceflight and shard weapons, Industrial Nanorobotics and the Nano Factory, Sentient Resonance with its R-12 weapons and R-8 armor?)

Superconducter, Pre-sentient Algorithms, Advanced Military Algorythms, Mind Machine Interface, Advanced Ecological Engineering, Centauri Meditation.

That's the rough technological border where I would be drawing the line.

quote: And maybe that's a fall-back strategy. Go conqueror until the 3 AI's are subservient, and then, together with Morgan take out the Angels and the Gaians, then call for an "El Supremo" vote (has to be after MMI to enable the diplo victory)

Too tough to accurately prdeict at this point in time. We don't have enough data concerning relative geographic positions, available land for the AI's to still expand unto, etc.

	19-10-2004 02:31									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie Yes - I'd like M's opinion as well - particulary as regards my thoughts on it being a "till level 9 technologies, then threafter may the better team win" approach. ... (And I'd like KK's and Zeiter's opinions as well, although with 4 of the regular six commenting we would have a "quorum", but it's one of those Game-defining decisions we'll make

*laugh*

Yeah. I guess having me around is not too much fun for the rest of you.


Tell ya what...:

Gimme; a colony pod, a rover, a former, and a probe team. Ship them off to a small continent somewhere. Then I won't disagree with anything the rest of you say no more (I'll probably still complain, though - but won't disagree).

	19-10-2004 02:38									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie I'd say so - essentially when we finally split we'd have exactly the same techs - all those at level 9 or below (assuming we go that deep) I'd even see it as being an integrated armies/airforce/navies co-operation, with perhaps our ships guarding their ports and our aircraft in their bases (all for an energy and research price, of course)

That's feasable. But tough to coordinate.
With just one person in charge of a faction (like in a team game), it requires lots of coordination.
In a demo game sauch as this, I just don't know how well this will work.
Should go okay with the way the Junta is structured, but if the Morganites have to debate everything over several turns internally... Someone (one of the factions) is going to get screwed with improper deployment of the combined forces.

	19-10-2004 06:14									#37
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quote: Originally posted by KrysiasKrusader with bold additions by Googlie Superconducter (4), Pre-Sentient Algorithms,(5) Advanced Military Algorithms,(4) Mind Machine Interface,(6) Advanced Ecological Engineering,(7) Centauri Meditation.(5) That's the rough technological border where I would be drawing the line

The bold numbers above represent the tech levels on KK's "line"

I could see a logical argument for a pact until MMI, as that technology sees Diplomatic Victory enabled (But we'd want to have the pact cede to us the Cyborg Factory, for the biogen centers (a quid pro quo might be our ceding to Morgan the rights to Ascetic Virtues)

I could live with that type of a "minipact". After MMI it'd be winner take all, I guess.

(and that was about the level reached in the last game - choppers and chaos weapons, I believe (I don't think we even got to fusion lasers, did we?)

	19-10-2004 06:29									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie The bold numbers above represent the tech levels on KK's "line"

I'm trying to offer a viable elternative. The above (and combinations thereof) have all been used in games I've been in. As you can see, they can also be used as a rough border of technologies that the two factions can work towards together. They help both of us.
Negotiations concerning who gets what SP, how much energy comes towards us, etc., can be tabled.

Other things I've used; once this treshold is reached, then non-aggression by either party towards the other for a set amount of years, no deployment of aircraft in bases within each others range for so much time, etc.

Contracts / agreements can also be extended, ammended, etc., during its course.

quote: I could live with that type of a "minipact". After MMI it'd be winner take all, I guess.

Not neccessarily. We could work on another deal, or whatever. But untill then, it will buy us time to see how things go, without commiting us to an elite/drop/shard/hovertank/gas cannister conflaguration...



Edit:

Anyways. Looks like we all generally agree that we should ally with someone. All I'm saying is; while we don't want to undercommit, let's not in turn overcommit.

	21-10-2004 05:22									#39
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I have now made rounds in all three embassies. (Finally!)

Morganites:
- Threw the thought of a pact out in the open
- Proposed the standard EthCalc trade we've agreed upon (15 year embargo, no CDF, 15x10 ec)

Gaians:
- Suggested a trade of Doc Flex for Social Psych and 50 credits
- Suggested the standard EthCalc trade

Angels:
- Suggested the standard EthCalc trade
- Suggested the Doc:Flex<->IndEcon trade

Now I just hope I didn't propose to the Angels what I was supposed to propose to the Gaians, etc.

	21-10-2004 05:32									#40
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I'm actually rather sorry I didn't write that stuff sooner. I seemed to have a writer's block of some kind, which feels rather silly when you consider that it's just a few diplo messages. I wonder if I'm taking this stuff too seriously.

	21-10-2004 05:47									#41
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(Maybe I deter you in some way with my verbose style of suggesting trades and embargos, etc)

Just tell me to stick to commanding the Engineering Corps and leave the diplomacy to you

GGLIE

	21-10-2004 05:51									#42
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Nothing wrong with verbose, as long as there's a point to it. Like hiding a little trick that'll grab them by the nose when we need it. I'd wager it's more related to the fear of making a mistake that'll bite us in the **** when we least need or expect it.

	25-10-2004 06:22									#43
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A short history of Sparta

• >>> >>>
  
• 
  
• >>> >>>
  
• =
  
• >>> >>>
  
• >>>
  
• >>> >>>
  
• =
  
• =

GGLIE

	25-10-2004 06:33									#44
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as I've said in another thread, an alliance with the morganites seems like the best option. They could help us with energy and research (along with research from the university when we take them). This gives us the best chance for success and the most flexibility. Without any kind of alliance, our negotiations and actions with other human factions (and even ai factions) will have to be careful to not draw too much heat on us. We won't have enough to back us up.

	25-10-2004 15:44									#45
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The current Googlie plot we have going on with the Morganites does give us a chance to pact with them. Have them agree to a decent trade, reinstate Googlie properly, voilà, friendship, perhaps a pact. That "you should have invaded us earlier" line arginine threw in is good leverage, we can act all hurt and insulted now.

	25-10-2004 16:52									#46
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quote: Originally posted by Googlie A short history of Sparta >>> >>> >>> >>> = >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> = = GGLIE

	26-10-2004 01:55									#47
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Yes. Quite imiginative.

	26-10-2004 02:36									#48
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How is this for a nefarious scheme:

We ally with Morgan, conquering most of the world, including getting Lal to be our submissive friend. We can probably get ourselves elected planetary governor with his help, but probably not supreme leader (Morgan could be too big). So how about gifting all our bases except the smallest one we can find to the Peacekeepers, and then run for supreme leader. They would get double votes for every one of those bases, and they would still back us up right, being submissive? So we'd get a million votes and win

	26-10-2004 02:46									#49
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Oooohhh - I like!!



(When you look up "nefarious scheme" in the dictionary it says:

"see Snoddasmannen's vote doubling plan"

	26-10-2004 02:53									#50
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Hmm - unfortunately:

quote: Extracted from the SMAC Manual Only the leader of one of the two factions with the highest vote totals may stand for election as Supreme Leader.

It was a neat idea, though

	26-10-2004 02:56									#51
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You beat me to it...

	26-10-2004 03:03									#52
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quote: Only the leader of one of the two factions with the highest vote totals may stand for election as Supreme Leader.

Crap dangit!
I was hoping only the planetary governor could run ... Thanks for the info Googlie.

But we should still gift them just enough to keep us in second place just ahead of the Morgans (or whoever). We could acquire bases from other submissives and donate to them for instance. If we have the Empath guild we could still manage to stay ahead of the Morgans. Or maybe we should gift the empath guild to the Peacekeepters?

	26-10-2004 03:06									#53
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The Empath Guild has been disabled in this game...