12-10-2004 03:54									#1
	Current diplomatic situation and future speculation: MY 2143 Get a bigger avatar today!

I'm feeling like I'm losing the big picture with debates going on between the thread relations threads, so I'm setting this up so that we can pull together all this to get a clearer view of our foreign relations.

Currently, we have contact with:
- Morganites
- Gaians
- Peacekeepers
- University
- Hiverians

We have no contact with:
- Data Angels

Interhuman contact:
- The Data Angels and the Gaians have met.
- The Morganites and the Gaians have NOT met.
- The Morganites and the Data Angels have NOT met.

Wars:
- The Gaians and the Hive. No other wars at present (?)

The deals we have made so far:
- Gene Splicing to the Gaians in exchange for IndAuto (no-trade 5 turns)
- Doc:Mob to the Gaians in exchange for IndBase (no-trade 5 turns)

The deals we are planning or have proposed (Important!):
- Sell the Gaians and the Morgans their respective commlinks for 50 credits of profit in the same turn
- Buy Data Angel commlink from the Gaians for 25 credits
- Sell Gene Splicing to the Morganites for 250 credits (no-trade 20 turns)
- Sell the Gaians infilitration info on the Hiverians for various sums of credits
- Treaty with Morganites for 50% of the trade benefit they will receive. The Morganites want a pieced-together map of Hunter's route for no compensation, this is naturally unacceptable.

The deals we have been proposed by others:
- None that I'm aware of right now

Intrigue we have going on:
- Snoddasmannen's outburst at the Gaians
- Snoddasmannen's apology and apparent demotion
- Illuminatus says no apology was required to the Gaians, but to the Junta
Next step(s):
- Googlie explains how Spartan decision-making works, and this way gives out hints of the splintering within Sparta

Our stance towards various factions:
- University. Subjugate them and guard them for lots of tech.
- PK's. DESTROY THEM!!
- Hive. Tolerate for now, possibly whomp with the Gaians when the time comes to grab that real estate.
- Gaians. Friends for now, but use Snoddasmannen intrigue to cool relations down, perhaps to prepare for a possible war, or to provide a good means to justify a war on them. Possibly allied with the Data Angels.
- Data Angels. Possibly allied with the Gaians. No contact so far, so no intrigue. Pacting and exchanging techs an option, but it would benefit them a bit too much perhaps.
- Morganites. For now, careful friendship. They seem receptive since they fear a Datatech/Gaia axis has developed, so we should use their fear of being left alone to milk them for energy credits.

What's the big question is, with the possibility of a Data Angel/Gaian alliance, is what the heck is our game-wide strategy? We need one, and badly.

My thoughts on this - the first step is to take Zak before anyone else does and wreck the PKs. This will put a hell of a lot of heat on us, however, so we may need to secure an ally before putting that plan to action. Perhaps have them help us nominally and spare the spoils.

I'd call this "avoiding BB" if I were playing a Paradox game; in Paradox' games "Badboy" is a rating that skyrockets if you annex a lot of lands. Countries love to ally against countries with big BB.

So who do we ally with? The Data Angels seem an unlikely option so far. The Gaians and Morganites are relatively close neighbours. The Gaians look like a good choice - they are land connected, we can help them with Yang, they can help us with Zak.

We can split the profits from the two campaigns and split the heat too. And when the final showdown comes, through devious plotting and factional instrinsic advantage we will win the day, perhaps through a Conquest victory.

If the Gaians are allied with the Angels, we need to either choose to ally with Morgan or try to disrupt the Gaia/Angels axis. The latter would require the Gaians to consider us a far better deal, since I think a smear campaign or a similar more cloak&daggerish method is too risky and has low probability of success.

If we end up with the Morganites, they are hardly a lot of use with war-waging. We could, however, use them as an energy generator of sorts, and gift them some bases we take in the inevitable vendettas against the AI factions to draw away heat from us and to help them develop alongside us. In return, of course, they would provide us with the latest toys and all the money we need.

However, currently, our friendship with the Gaians is in a much better shape than with the Morganites. To cement a friendship with the Morganites, we might be better off just agreeing to their current Treaty proposal and giving them the combined world map they want. A slight concession, if you will. Their slow moves in the diplo forum are unnerving, though.

I am not going to speculate on an Angel alliance, since we haven't met them yet, they are rather distant geographically, and Maniac has had some personal friction with the Angel members in the past. I am not counting it out though.

I suppose this is what Googlie was wanting, a joint session of the Junta to start trashing out our foreign policy and game plan. So start trashing

Last edited by Kassiopeia on 21-10-2004 at 05:20

	12-10-2004 04:19									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I have some speculation as far as Morgan's fear mongering: perhaps they are trying to draw us into an unequal alliance with them? Or perhaps they are trying to get us paranoid about the Gaians and Data Angels so that the Morgans get left to themselves?

As for giving up map data to the Morganites: NO WAY!!!!! They probably just want that so they can infiltrate us.

As for game-wide overall strategy, I originally advocated allying with the Gaians. Now I'm not so sure. The diplomacy has been rather shaky.

What if we just pursue a general isolationist policy? If we aren't allied with anyone, we'll seem less threatening. Perhaps the other three will be too busy with trilateral intrigue to worry about us. Meanwhile, we feast on the Zak and Lal continents.

	12-10-2004 07:06									#3
	Re: Current diplomatic situation and future speculation: MY 2141 Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia I'm feeling like I'm losing the big picture with debates going on between the thread relations threads, so I'm setting this up so that we can pull together all this to get a clearer view of our foreign relations.

Good summary - it will be a good baseline to work from

quote: The deals we are planning or have proposed (Important!): - Sell the Gaians infilitration info on the Hiverians for various sums of credits

They have politely declined as they expect themselves to infiltrate the Hive

quote: The deals we have been proposed by others: - None that I'm aware of right now

we know that Zak will sell us Ethical calculus for 100 ec's

quote: What's the big question is, with the possibility of a Data Angel/Gaian alliance, is what the heck is our game-wide strategy? We need one, and badly.

I agree. All too often in PBEMs I see the pacts being set up almost in order of meeting, and it looks like the Angels/Gaians have done that.

Our choices seem to be:

• Run an independent policy with a series of 3 bilateral Treaties/Pacts
  
• Get into bed with Morgan to create a 2 faction powerhouse - our military and their commerce
  
• Get into bed with the Gaians and:
  >push out the Angels if they are already in bed with Dee
  >join the Angels for a menage-a-trois if they are already in bed with the Gaians
  >if the Gaians have no current ties, then create a 2-faction powerhouse with our conventional prowess and their indigneous prowess
  
• Link with both Morgan and the Gaians to shut out the Angels, then deal with Morgan and Gaia later
  
• Commit to nothing 'till we've met the Angels, then link with them against Morgan and the Gaians

quote: My thoughts on this - the first step is to take Zak before anyone else does

I agree

quote: and wreck the PKs.

Again, I agree

quote: This will put a hell of a lot of heat on us, however, so we may need to secure an ally before putting that plan to action. Perhaps have them help us nominally and spare the spoils.

Maybe help more than nominally? Energy Credits would be good. tech leapfrogging would be good

quote: So who do we ally with? The Data Angels seem an unlikely option so far

I agree - we just don't know anything about them yet

quote: The Gaians and Morganites are relatively close neighbours. The Gaians look like a good choice - they are land connected,

with the Hive, but not with us. We met only because R-112 was teleported via a dimensional rift

quote: we can help them with Yang,

They declined our offer of help

quote: they can help us with Zak.

I'm not sure how, as they are some ways removed - and haven't met yet

quote: If the Gaians are allied with the Angels, we need to either choose to ally with Morgan or try to disrupt the Gaia/Angels axis. The latter would require the Gaians to consider us a far better deal, since I think a smear campaign or a similar more cloak & daggerish method is too risky and has low probability of success.

But the Gaians themselves would need to see us as less of a long term threat than the Angels, better able to help them in the short run, and able to plug the gaps that they have in their faction characteristics.

If I were the Gaians, I would see these exemplified more by the Angels than by Sparta

quote: If we end up with the Morganites, they are hardly a lot of use with war-waging. We could, however, use them as an energy generator of sorts, and gift them some bases we take in the inevitable vendettas against the AI factions to draw away heat from us and to help them develop alongside us. In return, of course, they would provide us with the latest toys and all the money we need.

A Sparta - Morgan alliance makes so much more sense, as we are eternally cash-poor (being unable to run wealth) and they are offensively challenged (at least until the advent of clean reactors) but are a money-making machine

quote: However, currently, our friendship with the Gaians is in a much better shape than with the Morganites.

I disagree. Just reflect how pissed off we were when the Gaians asked for the "25ec's for the Angels' commlink" to be taken off the table

quote: To cement a friendship with the Morganites, we might be better off just agreeing to their current Treaty proposal and giving them the combined world map they want.

They haven't asked for a "combined world map." They have asked for screenies of future explorations by the SCC Hunter, or another ship if the Hunter gets sunk or returns to base

quote: A slight concession, if you will.

I could see a compromise - agree to Hunter screenies, but future 'observer" status on other vessels to be negotiated and not automatic. Not that big a concession from us if we decide to use the Hunter to explore Morgan's coastline (and maybe we should tell them that)

quote: Their slow moves in the diplo forum are unnerving, though.

They are actually no worse than the Gaians, and maybe when we have more to talk about and exchange they'll become more garrulous

It might actually be good for our faction if we do find that several of us are leaning towards a Morgan alliance and other towards a Gaian alliance (with maybe a third group of "go-it-aloners" or "let's wait till we contact the Angels before we cement anything"

(of course there's that famous purported "shadow group" that want to pact with the Hive and run a domination agenda right away!!)

Kass, all in all a good thought-provoking summary

GGLIE

	12-10-2004 11:39									#4
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Great discussion guys.

I'm beginning to like the idea of cooperating with the Morgans. Let them feed us cash and we can share with them the techs we steal from the Uni and maybe even gift them a base or two from the war effort, like you suggest Kassiopeia. And like Googlie says, our skills complement each other so the alliance is a natural one.

As for our position towards the Gaian / Angel cooperation (which I am carelessly assuming), it should be one of presumed future hostility, but peace and limited cooperation until further notice. If they figure we are pacted with the Morgans, they could very well attempt to attack them, cutting off our energy supply. We could protect them, and this would place the Morgans in a position of military dependency towards us.

This is just a dream scenario
We really need to talk to the Angels before making any such long-term decisions.

Oh, and observation status on the Hunter should not be given away for free with the Treaty, make them pay an annual fee for board and lodging. When we tire of the observer, he can always fall overboard in a tragic accident.

	14-10-2004 03:00									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter As for game-wide overall strategy, I originally advocated allying with the Gaians. Now I'm not so sure. The diplomacy has been rather shaky.

Yep... I tend to concur here, as well. Not that I like doing so. But it seems to be the case.

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter What if we just pursue a general isolationist policy? If we aren't allied with anyone, we'll seem less threatening. Perhaps the other three will be too busy with trilateral intrigue to worry about us.

Problem with that is we run a very real risk of being left behind technologically, as well as diplomatically, vis a vis the player factions.

As much as I am dissapointed with how fast talks are progressing, I'd rather still feel things out. It would be nice to get some kind of gleaning on what the others would consider, and how far they'd be willing, to cooperate with us.

I don't mean on short term treaties and tech exchanges; but on where they see things going and what would they consider to do to alter any of it. But this requires forming a rapport with someone else in another faction. Elsewise, people won't divulge such information.

	14-10-2004 03:13									#6
	Re: Re: Current diplomatic situation and future speculation: MY 2141 Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Googlie All too often in PBEMs I see the pacts being set up almost in order of meeting, and it looks like the Angels/Gaians have done that.

That's because those two have an immediate advantage over the rest. The opportunity to zoom ahead of the others in; technology, exploration, and military planification. It's something that is hard not to do otherwise. It also gives one a sense of security on one flank, thus being able to concentrate (perhaps two factions) resources against another. It's pretty powerful. That's why you see me harp about diplomacy being so strong all the time.

I, myself, thought that we could achieve this with the Gaians. But it seems that's not to be...

	15-10-2004 08:05									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Oh yea. Here's (*bump*) one of the threads I was alluding to...

Gotta trash this one out a little more guys...

	15-10-2004 08:52									#8
	Tired of ads?

OK - while we're waiting for the Gaians to respond, let's examine what we know about the political situation.

Morgan

Background to the meeting

So far in the game, Morgan has only met us and the Hive (and us only in 2141)

They must be feeling isolated and somewhat paranoid (witness their comments to us about the Gaians/Angels hatching plots. As an aside, I wonder if, for example, they'd met the Gaians first if they would have asked them what they knew about the Angels-Sparta alliance???)

My guess is that what they've got by way of techs they've researched themselves.

Then we arrive on the scene (It was ironic that the turn before we met I left that diplo window open. I believe that in their paranoia, they think that we might have actually been able to contact them earlier - cf the welcome in the Embassy from Whoha "and any Spartan people that were stuck aboard that gunship for who knows how many turns " - but chose not to, but accidentally left that trade diplo window open with all our techs on offer.

So they are looking at us quizzically. We're all they've got right now, 'cos the Hive isn't talking to anyone, and so the dance has begun.

A Morgan-Sparta Alliance

Who would this most benefit? Initially, there would be much to gain for both parties, as is being evidenced by the early trade feelers.

They can get from us exploration information, we can be a conduit for technology trades from third parties, and provide a fair measure of protection should the need arise.

They can assist us with technological research, and with energy credits for thos rush builds that we need so vitally so as to offset our industry penalty.

But over the longer term the balance shifts dramatically in their favour. There will come a fulcrum point when we no longer can present any threat to them militarily. they will have clean fusion or quantum powered neutronium-armoured garrisons, and will be sheltering behind Perimeter Defences and Tachyon Shields. Even our Elite Fusion shard units will be unable to dent these much. So they will simply hide behind "Fortress Morgan" and Transcend out of our clutches.

So we either have to keep them weak, with a series of on-and-off treaties and vendettas, or else decide early on that they are a target for elimination, takeover or enslavement. (And if we opt for the second choice, we may still have to pursue the first option to make the takeover effective)

So my reading is:

They can be a good partner in the next 20 - 30 turns or so, while research is burgeoning and while we have a monopoly on contacts

By around 2160 or so we need to find an excuse to enter into a limited objectives Vendetta (maybe capture a base or 2 of theirs, then let them sue for peace with some goodies thrown our way, and live off that for 20 years or so. Make sure that any peace settlement has a high maintenance cost for them (ie indemnities of around a couple of hundred or more ec's per turn coming our way - we have to stop them mass upgrading defenders, and rushing defenses and other infrastructure)

Around the turn of the century we should be prepared to take them out completely, before they get clean fusion and neutronium armored defenders.

Why this timetable?

'Cos I think that from 2150 to 2160 or so we'll be preoccupied with the Uni, followed shortly thereafter (with prolly some overlap) with the PK's. We'll need a couple of decades to lick our wounds and get some infrastructure in place in the captured bases, and then we can start pinpricking Morgan.

We'll be stron enough to inflict some damage and prollyt capture a base or 2, but I doubt that we could go the whole way in the 2180's or so.

Then we can rebuild, upgrade (and maybe really develop our Airforce) with Morgan's reparations.

But I suggest we take Morgan out before we go after the Angels and Gaians - and maybe even join with the Gaians to carve up the juicy Yang during that period when we are cultivating Morgan (2180 - 2200 ish)

2142 -2150: Infiltrate Zak and build up our invasion fleet
2150 - 2160: Subjugate Zak
2160 - 2175 - take out the PK's
2175 - 2180 - Skirmish with Morgan, then sign a Truce
2180 - 2200 - rebuild, rearm and prepare - maybe concurrently with waging Vendetta with the Hive at the side of the Gaians
2200 - remove Morgan from the game

(If only it were so simple in practice)

	16-10-2004 03:59									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

Yes, I definitely agree: Zak, then Lal, then exploit and/or invade Morgan, then Hive, and then on to victory.

So, how would we rate these priorities in order from most urgent to least urgent?

*Subjugate Zak
*Popboom
*Crawler whoring our bases to at least 16 min.
*Snatch an SP or two
*Expand our # of cities
*Probe defence
*Cheap drone control
*Advanced terraforming (more formers, boreholes, etc.)

I would say:

1. Cheap drone control
2. Probe defence
3. Crawler-whore our bases
4. Subjugate Zak
5. Snatch an SP or two (if possible)
6. Expand # of cities
7. Advanced terraforming
8. Popboom

	16-10-2004 04:28									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Zeiter *Crawler whoring our bases to at least 16 min.

Question: does this include first building some more formers?

	16-10-2004 04:31									#11
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I'd be inclined to think of it more as "what's on our critical path"

and would answer:

The Citizen's Defense Force SP - I see that as absolutely critical. We can sustain all sorts of field casualties, but we need a secure base, with - always - best armor trance, then trance AAA defenders behind that 100% defence bonus perimeter

Doctrine Air Power - with the prohibition agaisnt choppers attacking bases (and the nonbuild of the Cloudbase Academy), conventional airforces are going to be gamewinners

The Maritime Control Center SP - we need a navy to transport our forces and project our power, and naval yards in every coastal base, the +2 morale for naval units, and the 2 extra movement points confer a huge advantage

Fusion Power - even our elite troops will be cannon fodder if we're fighting with fission against a faction with fusion

Sentient Resonance - I'd rather have this tech than a combo of Advanced Spaceflight (level 13 Shard weapons) and Matter Compression (level-8 Neutronium Armor). it gives a level 12 weapon and a level 8 armor, but with a +25% bonus - on both sides - in psi combat. One big advantage of the other 2 techs, though, is that they are the prereqs to Super Tensile Solids, which give hab Domes (grow beyond size 14) but, more importantly, the Space Elevator SP, the ultimate in projection of power

But I don't see the game getting much past the level-10 techs (of which Super Tensile solids is one)

And once a critical path is defined, then the pieces fall into place

thus, gigalots of crawlers are essential (for SP building, prototyping, mineral whoring, ect etc); formers are essential (for the terain that the crawlers will be working), etc

	16-10-2004 04:39									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Maniac Question: does this include first building some more formers?

Probably, considering the lack of forests and mines in our territory at the moment. Although maybe we'll get lucky and those forests near the crater bases will start growing like weeds.

Edit: That's a good list, Googlie. I would also add the Command Nexus and the Cyborg Factory to that list of SPs that we might want to snag. In the case of the Command Nexus, if we play our cards right, we have a good chance of snagging it. 3 crawlers + 2 AAs + one turn of production at OA would complete it. I don't think any of the human teams have it yet, and they probably don't have much interest in getting doc:loyalty anyway, (although the Gaians have the opportunity, if they can get a lucky probe steal). So, I suggest, before the end of the decade, we prepare for a probe raping of Yang and a 1 turn crawler build of the Command Nexus. No?

	16-10-2004 05:26									#13
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Didn't we decide just to let Yang build it, then capture the base?

Hmm - maybe not (he's got it going at the Hive - 10 turns to complete - and at Fecundity Tower - 15 to complete)

	16-10-2004 06:05									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Oh, only 10 turns? Cool. That sounds like a plan then I had no idea that Yang was already building it.

	16-10-2004 06:14									#15
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

But I doubt that we'll be able to take out their HQ that easily (might need Shrek and Fiona for that!!)

	16-10-2004 07:09									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

I generally agree with Googlie's strategy and strategic forcast. For the record, I NEVER share Map data. Let the other factions spend credits to build boats. Strongly urge SP-Maritime Control Center and tech path to DOC:Air Power. Force Projection is done by Sea/Air and eventually Drop (luv Space Elevator)...In a Diplomacy game, alliances are crucial, but please consider that as soon as we invade Zak/PK, our credibility will go down. I support the tactical outline, but we still must be wary of Yang. We need to time our invasion plans with increased mineral production/formers/crawlers. I leave it to the Junta to decide Base Productions. I will lend my skills to the upcoming battles

	16-10-2004 23:26									#17
	Remove this text

quote: In a Diplomacy game, alliances are crucial, but please consider that as soon as we invade Zak/PK, our credibility will go down.

Good point. We don't want to be seen as a power-hungry belligerent, although that's somewhat inevitable when we start invading others. We'll have to spin it carefully, and perhaps share the profits of our conquest a little.

	17-10-2004 00:34									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

That is why I think we should try to strike up an alliance before we attack, so that we'll have someone to spin it with us and to make it easier to weather the extra heat from the "global community". (I can already see the RP spin - 'Spartan Federation sees Zakharov's brutal and immoral experiments as an active terrorist threat and decides to pre-emptively invade" or somesuch .) If we are to present ourselves as a saviour of sorts, then maybe some concessions might be in order, but I'd rather have us an ally we can give some crap (like small cities of little importance) to. Morganite would be ideal for this, it'd drag them down a bit and force them to tie down their troops to another part of the globe. Spread them out a little.

I could prepare people for the invasion, just moments before we post the turn wherein we declare vendetta, by a special issue of The Phalanx where we throw out to the open "evidence" of all sorts of horrors going on in the labs below University Base. If our infiltration reveals that they have Neural Grafting, all the better!

	17-10-2004 05:43									#19
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia That is why I think we should try to strike up an alliance ............................ then maybe some concessions might be in order, but I'd rather have us an ally we can give some crap (like small cities of little importance) to. Morganite would be ideal for this, it'd drag them down a bit and force them to tie down their troops to another part of the globe. Spread them out a little.

I'm thinking along somewhat similar lines, too, but coming from a different direction

After we meet and dance around a bit with the Angels (how many Angels can dance on a gunbarrel anyway?), and after we infiltrate Zak - and take stock if we want to immediately follow it with a teachsteal, or wait until he researches something juicy, we should think about a leapfrog Pact.

We have a slew of techs that the other 3 don't have, and they have one or two that we don't yet have. Picking one of them to pact with, and having a serious run at co-ordinating research (principally them) and stealing techs (mainly us) might get us up that tech tree fairly rapidly

And Morgan's a good candidate mainly (I think) because our interests interlock quite nicely

We want the CDF (to secure our rear), the MCC (to project our power) and the Neural Amplifier (for the inevitable combat against the Gaians wormy army). And we wouldn't mind having the Cyborg Factory either, for the Bioenhancement Centers that gives to each base. Maybe even the PEG for us would make sense.

I'd say that Morgan wants the Ascetic Virtues (for the +2 pop), perhaps the Longevity Vaccine (as good as the HGP if they run Green), the Supercollider and the Cloning Vats

So I'd argue in favor of (as far as a Morgan pact went) us getting first dibs on the SP's that generate a free facility in every base, because Morgan always has the wealth to build them in those bases where he wants them - we don't really have that luxury of building everywhere

In return, we'll hold off going for the SP's that facilitate population growth and drone control, as well as the research ones.

The trouble with the "no co-operative victory" set up is that we'd have to agree to part company at a time when we were equally strong - them economically and scientifically and we militarily. They'll know that we will try to take them out, and it will be galling for us to have helped strengthen them to the point where they might be able to resist us doing just that. Where that point is I don't know - level 8 or 9 techs maybe (Advanced Spaceflight and shard weapons, Industrial Nanorobotics and the Nano Factory, Sentient Resonance with its R-12 weapons and R-8 armor?)

We're certainlky not going to be able to win an economic victory, nor transcend before the builder factions. We're unlikely to win a 3/4 vote for a diplo victory (unless we subjugate the 3 AI factions, then force the others to keep their hands off while we protect their population growth, particularly the PK's with their double votes)

And maybe that's a fall-back strategy. Go conqueror until the 3 AI's are subservient, and then, together with Morgan take out the Angels and the Gaians, then call for an "El Supremo" vote (has to be after MMI to enable the diplo victory)

	17-10-2004 21:54									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Kassiopeia That is why I think we should try to strike up an alliance before we attack, so that we'll have someone to spin it with us and to make it easier to weather the extra heat from the "global community".

Yes indeed. We are already the most powerful human faction in the game, thanks to trade-whoring with everybody. If we invade and probe the Uni this advantage will be even greater ... The rest of the factions won't stand for it. If this is the state when the rest of the guys meet Morgan, they might well join forces for a quick invasion of us before going on with their regularly scheduled building.

quote: If we are to present ourselves as a saviour of sorts, then maybe some concessions might be in order, but I'd rather have us an ally we can give some crap (like small cities of little importance) to. Morganite would be ideal for this, it'd drag them down a bit and force them to tie down their troops to another part of the globe. Spread them out a little. I could prepare people for the invasion, just moments before we post the turn wherein we declare vendetta, by a special issue of The Phalanx where we throw out to the open "evidence" of all sorts of horrors going on in the labs below University Base. If our infiltration reveals that they have Neural Grafting, all the better!

Yes, I like that
From an RP perspective it is a lot of fun indeed, but we really need an ally to protect us from a three-front war. I also favor Morgan to this end... Time to start talking to them about this matter?

Yesterday, Snoddasmannen, recently promoted to Captain and senior diplomat to the University, announced that the Uni have chemical weapons capability. In his press release, he also mentioned 'filling the foul streets of University Base with the shattered glass of broken beakers and the heads of the luckier scientists.' Senior members of the Junta had no comments on that statement.

	17-10-2004 22:00									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm pretty much ready to start negotiating a pact with the Morganites, but I'd like some comment from Maniac too. So far only three: you, I and Googlie, have agreed with it, and this is a very important decision.

	17-10-2004 22:07									#22
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Yes - I'd like M's opinion as well - particulary as regards my thoughts on it being a "till level 9 technologies, then threafter may the better team win" approach.

Pretty much indicating (the better team) that we'll have removed the Gaians and Angels as contenders by then through our military prowess

(And I'd like KK's and Zeiter's opinions as well, although with 4 of the regular six commenting we would have a "quorum", but it's one of those Game-defining decisions we'll make

	17-10-2004 22:40									#23
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Should I start a poll on it? Would attract some attention.

	17-10-2004 23:14									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Well, wouldn't harm (I see Zeiter has posted a few minutes ago in one of the other threads, so maybe hasn't realized we 're needing his input here

But this is prolly one of those major decisions that do need to be polled - and maybe e-mail the url to the team members who aren't frequenting as much (like didident and Andemagne)

It pretty much determines the direction we take for the next 50 - 60 turns and could be the catalyst for an all-out Angels/Gaians versus Morgan/Sparta war

We shouldn't rush into proposing it (and maybe even hold off even mentioning it to Morgan as a "blue sky skunkworks idea" until we've had as much input as we can

	17-10-2004 23:21									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Question: Would such cooperation involving giving techs to Morgan, even if they got the better end of the deal?

	17-10-2004 23:24									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'd say so - essentially when we finally split we'd have exactly the same techs - all those at level 9 or below (assuming we go that deep)

I'd even see it as being an integrated armies/airforce/navies co-operation, with perhaps our ships guarding their ports and our aircraft in their bases (all for an energy and research price, of course)

	17-10-2004 23:26									#27
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Full out pact, eh? I like it. Morgan the builder and Sparta the conqueror would make a perfect match. Although by the time of level 9 techs, won't Morgan be fairly well entrenched? Just as long as you guys think we have a chance of beating a late-game Morgan, I'd say it's an excellent idea.

	17-10-2004 23:28									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

well, maybe we don't just willingly let them get the Cloning Vats, otherwise we'd see the diplo victory option go right out of the window

	17-10-2004 23:39									#29
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yeah, the Cloning Vats is almost a game-breaker for whoever gets it. If we got it, we could run thought control (which means we'd have +3 police, +2 probe, and +4 morale) for no penalty. Plus the popboom.

This game could be really fun if we get into the stage of aircraft carriers, ballistic missle subs, tachyon fields, satellite wars, hovertanks, etc.

	19-10-2004 00:15									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Googlie ... Morgan ... But over the longer term the balance shifts dramatically in their favour. There will come a fulcrum point when we no longer can present any threat to them militarily. they will have clean fusion or quantum powered neutronium-armoured garrisons, and will be sheltering behind Perimeter Defences and Tachyon Shields. Even our Elite Fusion shard units will be unable to dent these much. So they will simply hide behind "Fortress Morgan" and Transcend out of our clutches.

Ah, good.
Googlie described what I was trying to say somewhere else (I think it's in the Morgan thread). A little extreme, I think. Cause there's no way I'd let Morgan get that far, but still, a very plausible outcome to allying with them for such a long term.