14-10-2004 01:08									#1
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I've had an odd problem with my last game: Granaries stop functioning when the city reaches 7 population. Is that normal?

Even more odd, this problem disappeared when I captured the Pyramids.

	14-10-2004 01:27									#2
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They do work, except when the city grows there isn't enough food to half-fill the newly grown foodbox. So it often looks like granaries don't work when the city grows to a 7.

Once you get more food the visuals will correct themselves. Future pop growth will provide the half a foodbox of reserves.

	14-10-2004 01:28									#3
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You know that granaries normally don't work when a city goes from size 6 to 7 (or 12 to 13), right?

In unpatched civ, if a city with a granary grew from 6 to 7, it would have a half-filled food box. But as the food box size doubles from 20 to 40 there, this meant that it would have 20 food. If you built a worker that turn, it would go back to size 6 and have 20 food which would be a filled food box. So it could grow again next turn. Then you could build a worker every turn or every 2 turns with only 1 or 2 excess food if you had the production.

This was felt to be an exploit so Firaxis removed it in a patch. The logical thing to do would be to have 10 food left but as it's a patch, they just went with the simplest to code option. So granaries don't work at all then.

	14-10-2004 01:36									#4
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Are you sure Granaries don't give 10 food in the size 6-to-7 growth? I'm pretty sure they do (I use Settler/Worker pumps at that growth size all the time).

Unless building a Worker at size 7 with an empty food box and a Granary is what gives the 10 food...

	14-10-2004 02:39									#5
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You're right, new size 7 cities do have 10 food, even in civ3 1.29f. I'm sure I've seen a city with a granary and an empty box before bow. It's possible that that might have happened in an aerlier patch.

	14-10-2004 02:43									#6
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I am hesitant to disagree with alexman but I think Nor Me is right. Granary or not, the food box empties completely when going from size 6 to 7 or 12 to 13.

You can add a worker at size 6 (or 12) and have the built up food still there in your size 7 (or 13) city.

	14-10-2004 02:47									#7
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Incorrect.

10 food remains in the box when you grow to size 7. I remember seeing it just the other day. The line denoting that you have a Granary does not reappear until you have at least 20 food though.

	14-10-2004 02:48									#8
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I'm playing C3C 1.22.

Guess I'll do some testing of my own to check the 10-food thing.

	14-10-2004 03:16									#9
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10 food is how I remember it. I forget the details, but it was caused by the fix to the populationless worker "exploit", if memory serves.

	14-10-2004 03:50									#10
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Myself, I never build a Granery on a city that doesn't have an aquaduct (natural or artifical) unless it's a worker / settler pump.

Plus, I try to time construction of graneries to finish right before a city would grow. (Other than the size 6 -> 7 / size 12 -> 13)

	14-10-2004 09:06									#11
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Myself, I never build a Granery on a city that doesn't have an aquaduct (natural or artifical) unless it's a worker / settler pump. Plus, I try to time construction of graneries to finish right before a city would grow. (Other than the size 6 -> 7 / size 12 -> 13)

The city in question is a worker pump.

	16-10-2004 02:13									#12
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Most important thing for a worker pump is do not allow the city to cross the size 6 - size 7 threshold.

quote: Originally posted by Oncle Boris The city in question is a worker pump.

	16-10-2004 03:13									#13
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Why? It's the 20 food at size 7 barrier that you don't want to cross.

	16-10-2004 04:49									#14
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quote: Originally posted by joncnunn Most important thing for a worker pump is do not allow the city to cross the size 6 - size 7 threshold.

Yes, I have just realized this.

	16-10-2004 05:00									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me Why? It's the 20 food at size 7 barrier that you don't want to cross.

Assuming you have a Granary, that's the point where you start size 7, so you are both saying the same thing.

	16-10-2004 22:48									#16
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I've been avoiding the size 6-7 boundary for a long time. That's why I didn't discover what I've learned here.

quote: Originally posted by alexman Assuming you have a Granary, that's the point where you start size 7, so you are both saying the same thing.

Surely, you start at size 7 with 10 food. If you don't reach 20 food, then you can go back down to size 6 or 5 without slowing your growth.

Of course, I've not tried anything yet, so feel free to point out the deliberate mistake.

	16-10-2004 23:19									#17
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If you go down from 7 to 6 it erases what progress you made.

	16-10-2004 23:25									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Nor Me Surely, you start at size 7 with 10 food. If you don't reach 20 food, then you can go back down to size 6 or 5 without slowing your growth.

Sorry, of course you're right that you start with 10. Not sure what I was thinking.

But as Trip says, if you go past 10 food at size 7 and then go down in population, you will get left with 10 food (zero if you don't have a Granary), even if you were between 10 and 20 food at size 7.

	16-10-2004 23:48									#19
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But will the city grow, if the timing is correct? I mean, will the city drop to size 5, or 6 if a Settler is finished and there is 20 food stored?

	17-10-2004 06:44									#20
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Does make a difference whether you time your Granary build on the same turn as pop growth of one turn before pop growth?

	17-10-2004 07:05									#21
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Yes, you lose the extra food if it's built on the turn of Growth.

Modo44, if a size 7 city builds a Settler with 20 food in the box, you will get a size 5 city with 10 food in the box (or zero in the box if you have no Granary).

	17-10-2004 07:23									#22
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Food is tabulated first, then shields and finally commerce. Shields which are gained through growth are added in for that turn but commerce is not.

This means your Granary build will not be recognized until the food is applied and growth is taken care of. The net result, is, of course, what Alex has just said - if you grow the same turn that you complete a Granary then it won't be full the turn you build it.

	17-10-2004 13:56									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Trip Food is tabulated first, then shields and finally commerce. Shields which are gained through growth are added in for that turn but commerce is not.

Do you know this for sure? Would it not be the case that trade is worked out before food (and thus growth), then shields? How do you know that trade comes after growth, if the extra pop does not have any effect on trade anyway?

	17-10-2004 17:37									#24
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if the trade is calculated before growth that would expalin why pop dosnt get commerce

	17-10-2004 18:47									#25
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Trade must be calculated at the very beginning of a turn, which is why you receive techs before you go through the city build cycle (and can exploit it by changing builds to those that use the new tech). Its also why you can revolt before the build cycle if the tech you discovered is a government tech.

	17-10-2004 22:29									#26
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Yeah, trade is calculated at the beginning of each turn, before growth.

	17-10-2004 23:02									#27
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I'm really, really hoping that civ 4 does away with the min & max turns of reserach and the trade calculation at the beginning of the turn and does this (and science) on a per city basis like Civ I, II, and SMAC.