14-10-2004 02:57									#1
	Extreme Tank Production Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Opening the next save, we should be mere 2 turns from discovering Motorized Transport. That's close enough to start prebuilding tanks wherever possible.

Mulling the tank production plans over, I've eventually ended up doing a fairly detailed analysis. I focused on pumping as many tanks as possible, as fast as possible. Needless to stress why - the tanks are our ticket to the modern era. With a decent tank army, we should be ok. Without it, we will have to pray to the RNG...

Since things are going to move very fast now (at least I believe they are), I was almost exclusively looking for cities capable of building 1t or, at worst, 2t tanks. Everything else I considered "too slow for practical purposes". I focused on making good use of what we seem to have an abundance of - cavalries/horses and gold.

Abundance of cavalry...?

Yes, abundance of cavalry. Of almost useless cavalry, to be precise. Our cavalry, with the attack of 6 only, is very ineffective against infantry, unless that infantry is down to its last hp. Trading 1 or even 2 cavalries for a tank is an extremely good deal, since a blitz-enabled tank can rip through even just lightly wounded infantry pretty fine. Considering how much arty we have, even few tanks would help us inflict considerable losses.

So, for my extreme tank production plan below, I assume disbanding cavalry wherever 1-2 of them help us to a 1t tank.

No need to elaborate on horses, I believe...

Abundance of gold...?

Yeah... as for that gold... some of you suggested trying to steal Radio. Well, let me explain why I am not particularly excited about this idea.

It is obvious that GS are distributing their techs to GoW and ND only once Lego acquires them (the only exception was helping GoW to tanks). Which is, actually, beneficial to us! It's because of this strategy that we are facing only one research rival ATM. GoW & ND are forced to idle research-wise now... Means it's only GS researching modern techs - and that, in turn, means that we are catching up tech-wise. Not only because of our own research power, but because we are going to get a nice shiny free modern tech from Vox (and it will be only us getting it - considering the circumstances, I have no problem at all denying this free tech to others). Had they forgotten about this silly "tech blocking", they'd be able to not only maintain, but even increase their tech lead on us, being 3 against 2 (or 2.5 against 1.5)... but for some reason, they seem to believe that forcing us to spend few hundred extra gold is worth slowing the whole world down. :shrug:

Now, if we stole Radio (which is not granted, I believe, since even using "safe" does not guarantees success)... GS would immediately distribute Radio, and everybody (namely, GoW) would start researching modern techs. We would be unable to do any real fast research, since we'd have our gold reserves gone. So, we‘d effectively help others increase their research output at our own expense.

OTOH, if we do Radio in 4t (and we're perfectly capable of doing that, losing no gpt), GoW/ND may have to wait 4 more turns before being able to proceed to modern times. We keep our gold reserves, being able to either use them to bolster our war production, or speed up our research once in modern times.

And above all... we do not risk losing all that gold for nothing.

Yes, if we stole Radio successfully, we could use radio towers boosting the stats of our troops. That would be a very welcome thing. We'd get the Voxian free tech 4t earlier (but considering that it's most likely going to be Ecology, it would be no big deal). We could start our own modern research 4t earlier...

But is that worth risking/spending all our gold (and yes, it would be all our gold)? Is it worth waiving 50gpt of interest? Is it worth waiving our ability to shortrush massively? Note, please, that in order to regain the ability to shortrush, we would have to slow/stop our research, effectively nullifying/reversing the effect of the whole steal Radio thing.

As an alternative to this plan, let's have a look at how fast we could be building tanks if using all that gold for partial short-rushes:

Fast Tank Production

Tanks cost 100S a piece. Means that:

100+spt cities can build them from scratch in 1t. We've got only one such city - Legopolis - and it's not going to change (I don't believe Karina can get there, even if stealing tiles from the neighbouring cities). Considering that Legopolis lacks barracks, that it's our only city equipped with an airport, and that bombers cost 100S as well, I'd prefer keeping Legopolis on bomber production, if we are able to muster "tank cities" enough. Being able to seriously damage enemy ships close to our coast before engaging them will save many a ship flying our flag. And with virtually all our cities building tanks, it will be quite important to minimize our losses at sea.

90+spt cities can transform a disbanded horse (7S) and 12g (3S - shortrush to 10S/worker) into a 1t tank. Karina will be our only 90+spt city after finishing its hydro plant this coming turn. I believe this is a no-brainer... Karina has barracks and getting a shiny new tank every turn in exchange for measly 12g and one superobsolete horse will be golden... Karina shall start with this horse+gold-to-tank production the turn after the coming one (in 1250AD), using the F1 trick to switch its bomber prebuild to a tank in 1260AD.

80+spt cities can transform a disbanded cavalry (20S) into a 1t tank. We've got only one city practically able to do 80+spt: Red Bricks. Jackson is theoretically able to get there, but only if demoting Legopolis to under 100spt, which is a bad idea. However, there is currently a problem with Red Bricks - the city lacks barracks. We can either sacrifice 1t to build them there, or put up with building regular tanks here, trusting that they will be able to promote to vets through killing badly wounded enemy units. We should also keep in mind we still want some modern wonders, especially Internet - however, reasonable research times for Computers and Miniaturization (considering a beeline to Internet) are 5-6t and 6-7t. That's 2+4+(5 to 6)+(6 to 7)=17 to 19t away. But Red Bricks would be done in 12t with a 1000S wonder... conclusion: I believe it would be best to build quick 1t barracks here and then use Red Bricks to turn cavalries into tanks, 1 per turn.

70+spt cities can transform a disbanded cavalry (20S) and 40g (10S - shortrush to 30S/settler) to a 1t tank. We've got three suitable cities for this kind of production: Jackson, Zargonia, and Kloreepville. All of them have barracks, so as soon as they finish their current assignments, they should start with tanks. For Jackson, it will be this coming turn (1240AD) already, doing the first tank in 2t, using the F1 trick to switch production in 1260AD. Zargonia shall start in 1250AD, after finishing the current submarine build, using the F1 trick to switch production in 1260AD. K'ville only after finishing the current carrier build - in 1260AD.

60+spt cities can transform two disbanded cavalries (40S) into a 1t tank. Q.M. is already capable of that (will do its first tank in 2t, starting this coming turn), Panama will get to 60+spt after finishing its hydro plant in 1250AD (just in time).

50+spt cities can build 2t tanks just fine. We'll have 4 of those: Forkmouth from 1250AD (after finishing its hydro plant), Logville from this coming turn, S'haven, and Tarzania (both already at 50+spt).

40+spt cities can build 2t tanks either using a shortrush to 60S (44-80g, only possible in coastal cities, via a privateer) or by disbanding a cavalry in the middle of the production run. We’d have four cities like that available: Dye Fields (48spt -> 48g/tank for a 48-to-60S shortrush), Abilene, Tiberium (~45spt -> 60g/tank for a 45-to-60S shortrush), and Ahhmyfoot (45spt, 1 cavalry needed). I would leave Ahhmyfoot focused on infantry production – it’s not that we won’t need new ones... Ahhmyfoot would be helped by Horsefish producing 3t infantries.

This would be seven 1t tanks per turn from Karina (cost/turn: 1 horse + 12g), Red Bricks (cost/turn: 1 cavalry), Jackson, Zargonia, Kloreepville (cost/turn: 1 cavalry + 40g), Panama, and Q.M. (cost/turn: 2 cavalries) – total cost for these seven 1t tanks would be 1 horse, 8 cavalries, and 132g per turn. Add three to four 2t tanks per turn from Forkmouth, Logville, S’haven, Tarzania (no additional cost), Dye Fields (48g/2t=24gpt), Abilene, and Tiberium (60g/2t=30gpt) and we are at 10-11 tanks per turn, spending 132+24+30=186gpt and a number of obsolete units.

10-11 tanks per turn at this cost sounds acceptable (as in "enough") to me, so let’s leave Legopolis pumping bombers out. Here is the tank production timeline then:

1240AD
2t tank builds start in Jackson, Panama, Dye Fields, Logville, Quanto Mechanico, Abilene (6)
Red Bricks starts barracks

1250AD
1t tank builds start in Karina, Red Bricks, Zargonia, Kloreepville (4)
2t tank builds start in Forkmouth, S’haven, Tarzania, Tiberium (4)

1260AD (Motorized Transport discovered)
10 tanks completed - 10 total
1t tank builds start in Karina, Red Bricks, Jackson, Zargonia, Kloreepville, Panama, Q.M. (7)
2t tank builds start in Logville, Dye Fields, Abilene (3)

1270AD
11 tanks completed - 21 total
1t tank builds start in Karina, Red Bricks, Jackson, Zargonia, Kloreepville, Panama, Q.M. (7)
2t tank builds start in Forkmouth, S’haven, Tarzania, Tiberium (4)

1280AD
10 tanks completed - 31 total
1t tank builds start in Karina, Red Bricks, Jackson, Zargonia, Kloreepville, Panama, Q.M. (7)
2t tank builds start in Logville, Dye Fields, Abilene (3)

1290AD
11 tanks completed - 42 total

At this moment (that's 6 turns into the future, including the coming turn), we should hopefully be able to revisit the military production strategy and adjust it according to the situation.

Note, please, that unless we spot GS halfway across the ocean this coming turn (implying a landing around Invoice, on flat land), we'll be able to meet the landed units with tanks - since we should have 10 of those already in 1260AD.

	14-10-2004 07:54									#2
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I like it.

I agree that using the gold to short rush is a better idea.

I also know that we can hold off any invasion long enough to get the tanks going. Considering how long GS has waited, I would not be surprised that the attack does not happen at 1260 AD, or later.

I know that I proposed stealing techs, but I was throwing that out there as a possible idea. I think your argument against it is very sound, and am in agreement.

	14-10-2004 11:49									#3
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10 tanks/turn sounds very good! Let's roll

	14-10-2004 14:43									#4
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The slumbering dragon awakens finally, may the world tremble in fear!!!!

	14-10-2004 21:10									#5
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I think you awakened a while ago.

Tanks Gone Wild UNLEASHED!

	14-10-2004 21:42									#6
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Stealing tech:

Massive tank production:

And you know, if GS really isn't attacking us for some strange reason, we might just have to take this show on the road

	20-10-2004 04:12									#7
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tank TANK!!!

cower beaneath us you jealous weaklings!!!!

But, seriously, good plan

	20-10-2004 04:13									#8
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quote: Originally posted by ZargonX Stealing tech: Massive tank production: And you know, if GS really isn't attacking us for some strange reason, we might just have to take this show on the road

You know it would be an awful shame to waste such industrial effort....

	20-10-2004 10:34									#9
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Well... if we want an excuse we could return the voxians to Voxtaxia.....

	20-10-2004 15:57									#10
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quote: If they don't play the save in the next 4 hours I think that we should invade them. Anybody agree with that? If not, come meet our friend: Cavalry

-Krill

Is it just me or did GS managed get a spy in to Legoland?, Might be a bit dereviative but surely this implies GS knows our Military currently. - just a thought

	20-10-2004 19:36									#11
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What is so difficult to know/guess about it? We don't have Motorized Transportion, so we lack tanks. Therefore we have cavalries.

	20-10-2004 23:02									#12
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I was actually quite confused about Krill's line... I do not think he was referring to our cavalry. Perhaps trying to make it look like GS had cavalry??? But then they did not have Military Tradition, I think...

I did not really understand him.

One way or another, it seems GoW is so disorganized that a joint effort of them and GS seems unlikely...

	21-10-2004 12:55									#13
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I think trading the cavalry for tanks is a great idea

	29-10-2004 17:32									#14
	Re: Extreme Tank Production Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by vondrack This would be seven 1t tanks per turn from Karina (cost/turn: 1 horse + 12g), Red Bricks (cost/turn: 1 cavalry), Jackson, Zargonia, Kloreepville (cost/turn: 1 cavalry + 40g), Panama, and Q.M. (cost/turn: 2 cavalries) – total cost for these seven 1t tanks would be 1 horse, 8 cavalries, and 132g per turn. Add three to four 2t tanks per turn from Forkmouth, Logville, S’haven, Tarzania (no additional cost), Dye Fields (48g/2t=24gpt), Abilene, and Tiberium (60g/2t=30gpt) and we are at 10-11 tanks per turn, spending 132+24+30=186gpt and a number of obsolete units.

I am just going through all our cities, trying to scratch the most of them. Thanks to some WLTKDs, S'haven and Logville are at 60spt, making them a 2cav-into-1t-tank producers. Means that our output is 11-12 tanks per turn, costs up by 4 cavalries per turn.

I am going to find out what the situation would be if we mobilized.

	29-10-2004 19:28									#15
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OK, here we go. Have a look at the following table:



If you sum things up, you will see that we could be building 15-16 tanks per turn, using almost exclusively obsolete units instead of shortrush gold:

6 cities at 100+ spt (1t tank with no additional cost)
4 cities at 80+ spt (1t tank in exchange for 1 cavalry)
1 city at 70+ spt (1t tank in exchange for 1 cavalry + 40g)
5 cities at 60+ spt (1t tank in exchange for 2 cavalry)
1 city at 50+ spt (2t tanks with no additional costs)

Subtract Legopolis, which is on bombers, and you have 15-16 tanks per turn. Compare that to 11-12 tanks per turn without mobilization - it's 4 tanks extra...

It's not negligible, but I wonder whether 4 tanks per turn could decide the war... the real difference, it seems, is in how much gold is needed to keep the production running (and it's still nothing breathtaking).

I will have a look into how mobilization could affect the next 2 turns and what kind of a difference it would be once we run out of cavalries.

	29-10-2004 20:21									#16
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quote: Originally posted by vondrack I will have a look into how mobilization could affect the next 2 turns.

First results (sorry, just the results, no neat log, I am just jotting stuff down on a piece of paper - the results may be a tad off, but hardly anything major):

Without mobilization:
1250AD we pay ~100g and disband 9 cavalries
1260AD we get 9 tanks (Abilene will need to build a DD)
1260AD we pay ~100g, disband 11 cavalries, and 1 horse
1270AD we get 12 tanks
Total:
200g paid, 20 cavalries & 1 horse disbanded
21 tanks built

Mobilized:
1250AD we disband 8 cavalries
1260AD we get 13 tanks
1260AD we pay 40g and disband 13 cavalries
1270AD we get 14 tanks
Total:
40g paid, 21 cavalries disbanded
27 tanks built

Sooo... we get 6 (about 30%) more tanks. We save like 150g. Otherwise, it's very similar...

After going through this tedious excercise, though, I've realized something rather simple. Trying to determine how much more we'd be able to build in X turns if mobilized is a wrong way to approach the problem. Wrong question asked. The correct question is: Do we believe we can win this war without mobilizing our economy? No matter if it's now, next turn, or some later turn...

IMHO, the answer is very simple: we cannot. And as we are not planning any civil builds for the coming turns and the closest wonders are like 10 turns into the future... I believe there really is very little to ponder about.

We shall mobilize immediately.

	29-10-2004 20:51									#17
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I agree.

Don't forget that we will have to build also more infantries and while mobilized we can build A LOT of them per turn (we can use some shortrushes, probably). Plus the bombers. We will need more bombers and fighters and battleships, so we need badly those extra shields that can make us build some units in one turn instead of two.

Excuse me, but at work it is difficult to closely follow tables, not to say about searching for unit costs

	30-10-2004 05:41									#18
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Seems that nobody opposes the proposal. Thus, I will mobilize our economy while playing the turn tomorrow, adjusting all the builds accordingly.

	30-10-2004 22:34									#19
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I agree. This coming war is going to be our own world war. We will need every unit we can build if we hope to win it. I was also thinking a little more long term. If we can repell their attacks and destroy a major part of their army, I would try to launch a offensive against them or one of their weaker allies. I think fighting an offensive war is much better then being on the denfensive. The question though is how do we get our army in a position to be able to do something like that.

	31-10-2004 07:05									#20
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Offensive war? Maybe, but that is in the future.

Right now let's concentrate on the MASSIVE invasion forces.

When we turn back the MASSIVE Armada (maybe 2 Armadas), then we can see what the future holds.

	31-10-2004 07:14									#21
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I said in the future. I know though we have to defeat the invasion first.

	31-10-2004 08:08									#22
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True, very true...no offense intended. I didn't read your post, thoroughly.

	31-10-2004 10:02									#23
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puns away!!!

	01-11-2004 06:05									#24
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Oh I get it!

I made a funny and didn't realize it.