14-10-2004 08:52									#31
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quote: Washington through Jackson were pretty damn good, but Madison should have been more prepared for 1812.

Yeah, he should have given diplomacy more time rather than listening to the hawks in the Senate, who really just wanted to invade Canada. The Brits were ready to give in until the US declared war.

	14-10-2004 08:53									#32
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If FDR is one of our best presidents for beating the great depression why did he preside over more years of depression than any other president? If he is the best president for winning ww2 then why isn't stalin an even better leader for inflicting far more damage with far fewer resources than the americans and uk combined? If he is a superior president for beating the germans while not being a ruthless leader who stomped on liberites as Stalin did then what about his decision to imprison americans for having japanese ancestory? What makes FDR even a mediocre president?


FDR

I have to say I'm especially surprised to see imran rank FDR so high.

	14-10-2004 08:57									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo If FDR is one of our best presidents for beating the great depression why did he preside over more years of depression than any other president? If he is the best president for winning ww2 then why isn't stalin an even better leader for inflicting far more damage with far fewer resources than the americans and uk combined? If he is a superior president for beating the germans while not being a ruthless leader who stomped on liberites as Stalin did then what about his decision to imprison americans for having japanese ancestory? What makes FDR even a mediocre president? FDR

you make good points. I used to think FDR was great when I was a kid because he presied over such terrible times in history.

but what we have to look at is whether another president could have speeded the U.S. through the great depression. FDR pushed his socialist policies through because we were desperate. FDR's greatest asset was the fact he offered hope.

As for WW2, you can't fault FDR completely for this. He's a president, not a general. The fact is the U.S. had an army the same size as Portugal's. There was no way we could achieve the success of Stalin in less time. And it is congress who appoints the military, not the president. The fact is, it took us years to build up sufficient force.

	14-10-2004 08:59									#34
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quote: The fact is the U.S. had an army the same size as Portugal's. There was no way we could achieve the success of Stalin in less time.

And there was no way the Soviets could have achieved their level of success in ANY timeframe without US Lend Lease

	14-10-2004 09:00									#35
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FDR also did an Executive takeover of the Judicial.

	14-10-2004 09:03									#36
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Yep, although in fairness, Lincoln was the first to come up with that particular strategy

	14-10-2004 09:08									#37
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo If he is the best president for winning ww2 then why isn't stalin an even better leader for inflicting far more damage with far fewer resources than the americans and uk combined?

1. Stalin wasted many human lives rather inefficiently (not that efficient waste of human life is that much better).
2. Stalin has never been US President.

quote: If he is a superior president for beating the germans while not being a ruthless leader who stomped on liberites as Stalin did then what about his decision to imprison americans for having japanese ancestory?

There's awful and then there's really awful. Compared to what Stalin did to Germans, Poles, Finns, and others, Americans of Japanese descent were merely tickled by public school kids.

	14-10-2004 09:10									#38
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Well, compared to what Stalin and Hitler did, slavery in the US wasn't all that bad either. That's why you look at the act itself, not the act relative to acts other people have done.

	14-10-2004 09:22									#39
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Didn't FDR turn away Jewish refugees trying to escape the coming crackdown and eventual genocide in Nazi Germany?

	14-10-2004 09:23									#40
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So he did.

	14-10-2004 09:42									#41
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Well, compared to what Stalin and Hitler did, slavery in the US wasn't all that bad either.

Actually, I'd say that slavery was that bad.

	14-10-2004 09:52									#42
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd Yeah, he should have given diplomacy more time rather than listening to the hawks in the Senate, who really just wanted to invade Canada. The Brits were ready to give in until the US declared war.

Well, I was referring to the fact that we had an incredibly small navy. The war was really about assertion of power in North America. The Brits were stacking soldiers in their forts down the Mississippi and had violated US citizens. Madison should have had a plan to deal with the British and not just declared war without being prepared to fight one of the best armies in the world. The attacks into Canada and the attacks through Chesapeake Bay were evidence of the fact that we were not prepared at the time.

Waiting another month would have seen the Brits stopping their policies of capturing US sailors, but then again the US would never had asserted itself. Without the war US growth in territories and world power would have been stunted.

	14-10-2004 09:58									#43
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quote: Well, I was referring to the fact that we had an incredibly small navy.

Which, of course, was a holdover from the Jefferson Administration - Jefferson believed that a large ocean-going fleet was unnecessary for coastal defense, and that a network of forts and small gunboats would be enough. The US had plenty of both forts and gunboats, but neither was enough to defend the coast.

quote: Without the war US growth in territories and world power would have been stunted.

The US didn't really become a major world player until the very end of the 19th Century anyway - any influence it exerted prior to that point was economic in nature. Would the US have expanded a little more slowly? Maybe, maybe not. Without the war, could the US have stepped up campaigns against the Indians, if it so desired? Sure, probably.

I just don't really see what the War of 1812 did to expand US power in the long run.

	14-10-2004 09:59									#44
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quote: Madison should have had a plan to deal with the British and not just declared war without being prepared to fight one of the best armies in the world.

Firstly, he was largely pressured into war by hawks in the Senate, and second, the British were embroiled in the Napoleonic Wars at the time, so the US didn't have to face the best or largest British armies/regiments/generals.

	14-10-2004 10:00									#45
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In my lifetime, teh Reagan and Clinton were the best.

The were both good leaders, although teh Reagan was in a class of his own.

	14-10-2004 10:02									#46
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quote: Originally posted by DRoseDARs Zombie Reagan

	14-10-2004 10:07									#47
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If I had to choose only one president, it would be Abraham Lincoln as the best president in history of United States.

	14-10-2004 10:08									#48
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In spite of the fact that he violated his oath of office?

	14-10-2004 10:13									#49
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I'm not going to debate about Lincoln's legacy with a crazy libertarian -- maybe when I'm up to it though, I will debate it again with a crazy neo-Confederate sometime.



But not at this late hour.

	14-10-2004 10:15									#50
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Whether or not you want to debate the point is irrelevant. Lincoln clearly failed to uphold the Constitution, at the very least, when he made the decision to suspend habeas corpus, and ignore the Supreme Court.

Now, you can argue that those actions were necessary, but you can't argue that they were Constitutional, and there are methods for acting outside the Constitution - he could either have pushed for a Constitutional amendment (which would be tough, seeing as how by his own admission the states of the CSA were still states in the Union), or by going to Congress.

	14-10-2004 10:17									#51
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Harrison - died in office
Lincoln - assassinated
Garfield - assassinated
McKinley - assassinated
Harding - died in office
FDR - died in office
Kenedy - assassinated
Reagan - became brain dead in office

	14-10-2004 10:18									#52
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quote: Originally posted by David Floyd The US didn't really become a major world player until the very end of the 19th Century anyway - any influence it exerted prior to that point was economic in nature. Would the US have expanded a little more slowly? Maybe, maybe not. Without the war, could the US have stepped up campaigns against the Indians, if it so desired? Sure, probably.

I disagree. Besides the economic improvement, which is a biggee...

1) The war caused the US to create a strong navy and army.

2) World opinion rose and grievances between the British and the US were settled, leading to a long standing friendship.

3) Andrew Jackson becomes a war hero, leading to his eventual Presidency. Jackson was an adamant proponent of Manifest Destiny.

4) Indian tribes in the soon to be Northwest Territories make peace with the US, allowing for quick settlement of the area.

6) British power south of Canada is scaled back and then abandoned, allowing for a quicker absorption of the land.

7) Rapid expansion ensues in the lands east of the Mississippi, with 4 states being created by the end of the decade.

Heck, there are lots of reasons. The main ones are the limiting of Brisith ambition in the Mississippi valley, increase industrialization of the Northeast due to blockades, and the assertion of US power in North America. I think the war played a big part.

Then again, if it weren't for Napolean, would I be speaking the King's English right now?

	14-10-2004 10:19									#53
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No, it's all your interpretation on who violated it and who didn't. So he's right not to argue considering it's coming from a canned Libertarian interpretation.

I'm sure we can go into the raping of the militia amendment (you know the 2nd one) and how it's been hijacked so Joe Bob can keep an AK at home.

	14-10-2004 10:21									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Geronimo If FDR is one of our best presidents for beating the great depression why did he preside over more years of depression than any other president?

He didn't beat the Great Depression, WWII did that by creating a massive demand for industry and simulteinously taking millions of men out of the job pool. As soon as the war was over, the economy slumped. If the Korean Civil War hadn't started, the GD might have returned.

	14-10-2004 10:22									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker No, it's all your interpretation on who violated it and who didn't. So he's right not to argue considering it's coming from a canned Libertarian interpretation.

Ted Striker agreeing with me

	14-10-2004 10:23									#56
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quote: 1) The war caused the US to create a strong navy and army.

Only for the duration. At the beginning of the Civil War, 50 years later, the US Regular Army consisted of about 16,000 men. The US Navy was in a little bit better shape, but not much, AND it lost it's qualitative edge that US frigates held during the Revolution and War of 1812.

quote: 2) World opinion rose and grievances between the British and the US were settled, leading to a long standing friendship.

Again, look at the US Civil War - Britain was certainly not pro-US.

quote: 3) Andrew Jackson becomes a war hero, leading to his eventual Presidency. Jackson was an adamant proponent of Manifest Destiny.

I'll give you that one, but I don't see why Andrew Jackson would have been required for expansion.

quote: 4) Indian tribes in the soon to be Northwest Territories make peace with the US, allowing for quick settlement of the area. 6) British power south of Canada is scaled back and then abandoned, allowing for a quicker absorption of the land. 7) Rapid expansion ensues in the lands east of the Mississippi, with 4 states being created by the end of the decade.

These all deal with expansion - admittedly, I'm much more familiar with the military aspects of the conflict and time period, but I don't think the absence of the war would have led to a halt in US expansion. Remember, the US population was growing VERY quickly, due to high birthrates and immigration, and this factor alone strongly encouraged territorial expansion.

And I already admitted that expansion could have been slowed, possibly, but certainly not stopped.

The kicker, though, is that all of these arguments about expansion are irrelevant, because they are made in hindsight. Western expansion and peaceful accomodation with Native Americans were certainly not advanced as reasons for war (although territorial expansion at Canada's expense certainly was).

	14-10-2004 10:26									#57
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quote: No, it's all your interpretation on who violated it and who didn't. So he's right not to argue considering it's coming from a canned Libertarian interpretation.

Sorry, it's not just my interpretation. It's an actual Supreme Court case. Ex parte Merryman, to be precise.

http://www.tourolaw.edu/Patch/Merryman/

	14-10-2004 10:27									#58
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The U.S. and G.B. weren't friendly until the 1890s, and ten years later, we almost got into a shooting war with them over Samoa (and with the Germans as well, a three way battle). It has to do with the U.S. acting as a mediator between GB and Venezuela over a border dispute.

	14-10-2004 10:27									#59
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quote: As soon as the war was over, the economy slumped.

Well, that's true, but remember that by the end of WW2, the US was responsible for over half of the world's manufacturing, held 2/3s of the world's gold reserves, and produced 50% of the world's combined GNP. The economy had no place to go except down, as Western Europe and the Soviet Union recovered from the war.

	14-10-2004 10:29									#60
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Oh, and Ted - Chief Justice Taney was hardly a Libertarian